Storyline Archive : Continued Discussion

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Storyline Archive : Continued Discussion

Postby Kaz » Sat May 03, 2008 8:05 pm

Ok,

Have moved this thread from the Storyline forum to here.

This thread discusses the new game Storyline, which can be read here
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Shifty » Sat May 03, 2008 8:19 pm

Forgive the obvious question, but when you say "This is where we find ourselves," does that mean that the current game running has been under the mortal king part?
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby SoulDemon » Sat May 03, 2008 8:24 pm

Shifty, I believe that is what it means. The current storyline is the Mortal King storyline.

Kaz - I'm ok with this version. If there are no objections we will consider it written.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Kaz » Sat May 03, 2008 8:40 pm

The game has been running under a Mortal King storyline for ages. When Souldemon and Decae brought the old gods back, they came back as mortals.

Part of the reason for this was to place some context around their mortality.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Kyhera » Sat May 03, 2008 9:12 pm

I for one like what Kaz has written. It is especially helpful for a returning player "stuck" in the dinosaur age. I DO like the fact that the old "Gods" are now mortal, for it gives me (from an RP angle) the opportunity to take my characters to whatever faith suits them. Well either Angie or Barnie, I just do NOT look good in yellow ;)

What I WOULD love to see though (maybe a pipe dream) is a collaboration of players to RP their 'guy' to the top so he/she can take the throne.

Nice job Kaz :)
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Shifty » Sat May 03, 2008 11:36 pm

I dont want to be a jerk here, but how does this really provide us with new rp potential? It's the same story except now they are mortal??
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby SoulDemon » Sat May 03, 2008 11:50 pm

It gives you a flowing backstory for the past 10 years. This sounds alot better then the real world version of what happened.

I don't want to come off as a jerk either but what exactly are you looking for? Its not the same story per se (Actually its been what, for individual stories?) but I mean come on there is only so much that has changed from the game standpoint. Its still three races, its still a religious war, its still in a fantasy setting. Its up to the individual on how they fit themselves into the Canon storyline, just like its always been.

New roleplay will be created when people understand where their characters fit in.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Dyvim Tvar » Sun May 04, 2008 12:18 am

Shifty wrote:I dont want to be a jerk here, but how does this really provide us with new rp potential? It's the same story except now they are mortal??


I don't see how you get the impression that it's the same story. I mean, unless we're looking for a drastic overhall and change of genre, where do you expect this to go?
What Kaz has presented is a tying together of the various ages and an explanation of they evolved into one another up to the current situation we have. Which really is a different story to the original one and I don't see how it presents you with any less RP potential than the original story did.


Personally I was undescribably happier when it was up in the air wether the three were actually reincarnations of the Gods, or just a trio of really smart and hyper manipulative people who saw a power vaccum and decided to fill it themselves.
However since everybody else and their dog decided to keep reffering to the three as Gods and the factions as Faiths, I figure I'm in the minority on that one.


P.S. Kaz, for killing my most recent guild concept before it even got off the ground with this story, I am going to kick you sqaure in the shin one day!;-p
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Kyhera » Sun May 04, 2008 7:55 am

Dyvim Tvar wrote:Personally I was undescribably happier when it was up in the air wether the three were actually reincarnations of the Gods, or just a trio of really smart and hyper manipulative people who saw a power vaccum and decided to fill it themselves.
However since everybody else and their dog decided to keep reffering to the three as Gods and the factions as Faiths, I figure I'm in the minority on that one.


P.S. Kaz, for killing my most recent guild concept before it even got off the ground with this story, I am going to kick you sqaure in the shin one day!;-p


Well who says the "population" has to believe they are re-incarnated? The game storyline is one thing, what a character within that world does with it is another. Furthermore, who says anyone that wants to do their own thing in RP can't just do it and use the 'storyline' as background, and nothing more?

The challenge to me would be to adapt your creativity, whether it is to use this to substantiate your character's involvement, or to create your own concept with a mention here and there to a background you may, or may not, believe in. I would still go with your concept Dyvim honestly.

Theoretically speaking (but we all remember at least one guild like this from the past)----I have a guild. My guild is a ruthless sort of mercenaries who are here for one purpose, to further their gains, and their gains only. They have traveled from other realms and have found that these lands are ripe for plucking. So I incorporate myself as a noble of these lands, pick the Lord of choice I can hide under, and have at it. Sure I need the shield of the Lord I am supposed to serve to justify my actions, but mayhap I believe nothing of what he says or does. I may not even believe he exists. He is a means to a gain. In the process I pick up hapless souls who actually believe in this Lord and they add strength to my furthering of power. Religious wars are full of power-hungry opportunists who finally get to use a valid excuse.


I believe Dems and Kax are trying to tie in the storylines for continuity, so the game has a 'history' that any newcomer can refer to to get a feel for the game. While they do provide RP potential using this storyline, who is to say every newcomer to this world will believe what the story says? They really can't kill or control what people do with their RP and how they see their place in this 'society', can they?

Maybe RP is a dying form here because everyone is trying too hard to 'make it fit'.

Don't know if any of that makes sense. But it's early and I have to run to church and take my girls (who turn 12 today) out for breakfast :) so I am in a rush!
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Desdemona » Sun May 04, 2008 8:42 am

Sissa Kyhera said it here:

Maybe RP is a dying form here because everyone is trying too hard to 'make it fit'.


That sounds pretty darn close to my personal lil dilemma about RPing here again. Been internally debating that very issue for nigh unto a week now, and last night I had an epiphany of sorts. Right in the middle of RvR when I should've been healing the damn tank, but oh well, a rez is sometimes more mana-efficient...

This is one of those times where it may not be possible to go "home" again, at least not with certain characters from the past. For me, anyways. So the best thing to do?? Park the half-elf off somewhere in history limbo of the past and break loose the "side-line" characters I have had, as well as introduce a few other personas that have developed over the years in various incarnations.

Looking over the proposed storyline shifts and such, I can and will make it work in it's own weird lil way.

.....ya'll have been warned. Have a nice day.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Reggie » Sun May 04, 2008 3:37 pm

Well, if this is what you are going with, then it certainly makes no sense to include Oleana in the story. An editor I once had gave me a good rule to run by when writing ultra-short fiction. It goes something like this. If there is an element of a plotline that adds little or nothing to the arc with its inclusion and the arc loses nothing if that element is deleted, then the element is extraneous and should probably be deleted because it is nothing more than filler.

For example, this:


When the dust settled in heaven and in the mortal realm, each of Olandar's children found that he or she was not strong enough to defeat the others - though their pride, arrogance and jealousy dictated that no stand off could be negotiated. Instead, their mortal followers ground themselves into a bitter stalemate on battlefield after battlefield with nothing of any permanence gained. And so the Seat of Heaven stood vacant, with none of the triumvirate able to claim their father's throne. The death of wise Olandar in heaven brought centuries of senseless slaughter to his world of Tonan, and the war continues to this day - a war into which you yourself will shortly be plunged under your chosen banner.

Goddess Ascendant

So it came to pass, that a Saint of Angelique and a Saint of Leto remembered why Barnabas was first cast from heaven. During this period of hostility came the rise of Oleana. Known to her people as the Gypsy Queen, she helped steer them to greatness, before being killed by an unnamed man using poison and stealth.

In the aftermath of Oleana’s death, something occurred that had never happened before. Her death was not death, and the love of her people sustained and uplifted her, transforming her into something completely new. A spark of divinity ignited into a great flame, and a Goddess was born to Tonan.

Some were quick to claim her as pretender or an usurper, some that she was no deity at all, while still others claimed her to be Olandar reborn. Her followers call her the Mother of Earth, the bringer of peace and the one that will end the wars. But her arrival brings with it a new storm of war, for none of the three siblings could accept her place among them.

Records of the sudden end of this era are vague, and hard to come by. Those that have been found seem do differ wildly in their facts, but all contain a single element of truth. The old gods were gone. Some rumours told of Oleana sacrificing herself to destroy the other gods. Others spoke of Olandar returning to punish his wayward children for his death. Another story taught that in their eternal struggle the gods had finally destroyed each other.

Whatever the truth, Priests started to question their devotion to gods who were no longer there. Their desire to continue driving eternal fight to kill in the name of religion, faded. For the first time since Olandars death, peace reigned over Tonan.


transformed into this:

When the dust settled in heaven and in the mortal realm, each of Olandar's children found that he or she was not strong enough to defeat the others - though their pride, arrogance and jealousy dictated that no stand off could be negotiated. Instead, their mortal followers ground themselves into a bitter stalemate on battlefield after battlefield with nothing of any permanence gained. And so the Seat of Heaven stood vacant, with none of the triumvirate able to claim their father's throne. The death of wise Olandar in heaven brought centuries of senseless slaughter to his world of Tonan.

Records of the sudden end of this era are vague, and hard to come by. Those that have been found seem do differ wildly in their facts, but all contain a single element of truth. The old gods were gone. The most prevalent rumor taught that in their eternal struggle the gods had finally destroyed each other.

Whatever the truth, Priests started to question their devotion to gods who were no longer there. Their desire to continue driving eternal fight to kill in the name of religion, faded. For the first time since Olandars death, peace reigned over Tonan.


is tighter conceptually because it eliminates references to the throwaway character that adds nothing to the plotline and keeps the focus of the arc on the transition between the the original three deities and the ones that replaced them, which is essentially the driving point of this particular section of the arc. There is also nothing that is inherently different about the outcome of the 2 versions and you get to the point of the section about three or four paragraphs sooner. That is really all that is necessary, according to my editor's criteria, to eliminate the stray plot thread.

As it stands, the inclusion of Oleana into the story serves no particular literary function. Every other character introduced serves some function in the context of the overall story. She doesn't. She appears and then disappears a couple of paragraphs later without any real story-based rationale for why she is there in the first place. If she is not the driver for the disappearance of the old gods and the reason for their disappearance is going to remain unexplained, then the story is simply more functional without her there because she is a red herring.

You would, of course, have to remove the brief reference to her at the end, but it shouldn't be much of an issue to come up with a different tagline for this introductory story.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby SoulDemon » Sun May 04, 2008 7:40 pm

The problem with that is you just invalidated every guild that ever played under Oleana. You've destroyed the means of their existance by taking out every reference to Oleana.

As unfair as you see the Oleana storyline being shortened or not written as you would write it, the other guilds that existed have just as much of an unfair claim if we remove her completely.

Catch-22 here, the only option as I see it is to really upset everyone and go with what we got. Short mention of Oleana and her existance, but enough of a mention that anyone who wants to put contributing stories and roleplay to expand out her existance has the ability to do so.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Reggie » Mon May 05, 2008 5:47 am

My problem with it has nothing to do with fairness or unfairness. It has to do with whether her presence currently makes the story any better or stronger as it is written. It has to do with the fact that she is a complete nonsequitor within the framework of the story written here. A breakdown of the basic structure of the narrative is this:

1.) The father of the gods was killed by one of his children, leading to generations of warfare.
2.) The children subsequently disappeared, leaving a void.
3.) The void was filled by new deities, leading to more generations of warfare.
4.) The children returned to kick the new gods' asses, but managed to also get themselves killed in the process.
5.) People using the names of the children are now leading all-new generations of warfare.

Notice how one thing leads into the next thing, which then leads into another thing? That is conceptual tightness. Now, look at the structure of the story the way it is currently written:

1.) The father of the gods was killed by his children, leading to generations of warfare.
2.) Another goddess showed up for awhile.
3.) The children subsequently disappeared, leaving a void.
4.) The void was filled by new deities, leading to more generations of warfare.
5.) The children returned to kick the new gods' asses, but managed to also get themselves killed in the process.
6.) People using the names of the children are now leading all-new generations of warfare.

You notice how #2 has nothing to do with any of the rest of it and doesn't lead to anything? Now, this may be the way that you perceive Oleana's role in the history of the game, but it doesn't make for a good story. She doesn't have to do what I had her do in my version, but if you are going to include her, she must do something. She must serve some purpose in the overstory or the reader just goes, "Huh?"
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Kaz » Mon May 05, 2008 5:50 pm

There is the suggestion of what may have happened with Oleana, for those that want to follow that route

Records of the sudden end of this era are vague, and hard to come by. Those that have been found seem do differ wildly in their facts, but all contain a single element of truth. The old gods were gone. Some rumours told of Oleana sacrificing herself to destroy the other gods. Others spoke of Olandar returning to punish his wayward children for his death. Another story taught that in their eternal struggle the gods had finally destroyed each other.

For an Oleana follower you could take two storylines from that. Firstly the obvious one, where she does something to banish the other gods. Or if you were one of the players who thought of Oleana as Olandar reborn, you could argue for the Olandar return idea. With Barnabas, Angelqiue and Leto also all ending up in the void, there also is nothing to prevent the idea that Oleana ended up there.

Oleana isn't the only unanswered question in there. If there were 4 remaining gods alive in heaven when Darden smashed his bowl, what happened to Darden? is another one people might ask.

These questions will provide people with some interesting roleplay avenues if they chose to follow them.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Dyvim Tvar » Mon May 05, 2008 6:06 pm

Are you trying to tell me that there is potential there for one of the three actually interesting deities to have survived?

If this is the case, then your kick in the shin may well be put on hold--maybe.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Reggie » Mon May 05, 2008 8:06 pm

It isn't a matter of whether something can be drawn from the story about Oleana's ultimate fate. Anyone can presume anything they want about that. It's a matter of whether or not there's a point for her being there in the first place. And in the case of this story, unlike the rest of the others, since she accomplishes nothing, is the narrative device for nothing, and represents nothing thematically, there is no point to her being there. You could spend the three paragraphs you spend on Oleana talking about cheese in Burgundy and it would have exactly the same impact on the overall narrative.

Ah, well, I think at this point, we will probably just be going around and around on the same objections. That isn't really how I want to spend my time. There's not much point to continuing this discussion further since it seems like this is the way you want to go. My concerns are lodged and my approval, for what it's worth, isn't given. As far as my stories are concerned, they wouldn't really add much to your archive since you're basically writing a character whose only similarity to the character I created is her name. That's pretty much all I have to say on the matter.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Kaz » Mon May 05, 2008 8:26 pm

No matter what you wish, Oleana IS a part of the history of Tonan. The storyline is a container to hold the elements of the past, Oleana was a playable part of that past.

In a world where the Gods are now mortal, Oleana gives the roleplayer knowledge that the Gods could ascend from mortality back to godhood. Her vague ending adds several dimensions for possible roleplay and historical theories.

As for your lack of aproval, its noted.

However, you gave up you hold on Oleana over to this comunity when she became a playable Goddess, so it is not required. I wanted you to be a part because I thought you could offer this site back some of the stuff its lost, but we made do without it before, so I guess we'll make do now.

I think that having copies of the original storylines for Oleana would be worthwhile. But if you do not wish for them to be a part of the archive then so be it.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby Reggie » Mon May 05, 2008 9:51 pm

You are correct. I did. And there was no contractual agreement between me and Dustin regarding usage or revisions or anything along those lines then. At that time in my life, I was a bit more idealistic about the intentions of those I considered friends and thought the whole idea of drawing up a contract for something I was basically giving away anyway was rather silly. At that time, I thought the esteem in which my friends held me was significant enough that they would respect my wishes the majority of the time. I've learned a lot over the years and one of the primary things I've learned as a creator is that you really don't have 'friends' in a professional sense. You always need a contract even if the person you are dealing with professionally is someone you have known for twenty years and someone you believe, at the time, would give you the shirt off of their back. It is amazing to me that one of the game administrators would feel the need to use the 'she's not yours anymore' card on me when I acknowledged that fact years ago.

But this small chain of events is certainly reinforcement of that sad lesson I learned about contracts, I think. After all, the person you originally give whatever it is that you are giving away may not be the one who controls it years down the road. And whoever it is that gains control over what you gave away may not know you from Adam and will probably feel no obligation to hold your opinion in any particular esteem.
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Re: Proposed Game Storyline

Postby SoulDemon » Mon May 05, 2008 9:58 pm

Suv - If you ever want to hold a talk or two off the boards I'm open to that and talking about anything you have to say. Depsite what you may think I don't dislike you, just have issues with the way you go about showing your dislike for certain things.

To counter what you said, I've seen the opposite. I'm very protective over this site and community, the game code and the server in general. I've had to let others in and have access, and I've found a couple who are as trustworthy as you mentioned in your post. It all depends on the situation I guess.
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