Storyline Archive: Discussing the Era's

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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Kaz » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:02 pm

So we go supervague

Amidst this tremendous upheaval, one among the millions ascends to godhood. Some claim she is a pretender or a usurper, some that she is no deity at all, while still others claim that she is Olandar reborn. Her followers call her Oleana, the Gypsy Queen and the Mother of Earth, the bringer of peace and the one that will end the wars. But her arrival brings with it a new storm of war, for none of the three siblings accept her place among them.

Time passes and the battle of the Gods raged onwards, those who followed heathen Gods fell to the sword of the righteous. Empires rose and fell under the banners of the four Gods.

Records of the sudden end of this era are vague, and hard to come by. Those that have been found seem do differ wildly in their facts, but all contain a single element of truth. The old gods were gone.

Some rumours told of Oleana sacrifising herself to destroy the other gods. Others spoke of Olander returning to punish his wayward children for his death. Another story taught that in their eternal struggle the gods had finally destroyed each other.

Whatever the truth, Priests started to question their devotion to gods who were no longer there. Teir desire to drive eternal fight to kill in the name of religion, faded.

For the first time since Olanders death, peace reigned over Tonan.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Kaz » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:26 pm

Added an addition section to mention the celestial bodies around tonan, made the section a bit longer and keeps them in the storyline.

Amidst this tremendous upheaval, one among the millions ascends to godhood. Some claim she is a pretender or a usurper, some that she is no deity at all, while still others claim that she is Olandar reborn. Her followers call her Oleana, the Gypsy Queen and the Mother of Earth, the bringer of peace and the one that will end the wars. But her arrival brings with it a new storm of war, for none of the three siblings accept her place among them.

Time passes and the battle of the Gods raged onwards, those who followed heathen Gods fell to the sword of the righteous. Intop continued to rise and set, Numi and Soma continued their eternal orbit, and ages passed. Empires rose and fell under the banners of the four Gods.

Records of the sudden end of this era are vague, and hard to come by. Those that have been found seem do differ wildly in their facts, but all contain a single element of truth. The old gods were gone. Some rumours told of Oleana sacrifising herself to destroy the other gods. Others spoke of Olander returning to punish his wayward children for his death. Another story taught that in their eternal struggle the gods had finally destroyed each other.

Whatever the truth, Priests started to question their devotion to gods who were no longer there. Their desire to continue driving eternal fight to kill in the name of religion, faded. For the first time since Olanders death, peace reigned over Tonan.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Reggie » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:06 pm

Look, at this point, why not just delete Oleana from Canon history?

The conversation has reached the point where people who were always hostile to Oleana's existence and inclusion in the game have taken it upon themselves to rewrite the original stories and question elements of them, as well as insert their own perceptions and realities into the outside conversations that led to her inclusion, whether those perceptions and realities had any basis in fact or not. So the solution is simple. There is no reason to include her. It has been a long time since Oleana was a part of this community in any form. For the most part, other than occasional fond memories by one player or another, she hasn't really been missed by the vast majority of the people remaining here. Oleana's following, for the most part, is long gone.

Truth? I would rather see her disappear entirely than see the work that Rob Mather and I did seven years ago be disrespected to the point that her story morphs into the load of crap posted by one of the forum members above.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Kyhera » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:55 pm

Well like it or not, Oleana was a VERY visible part of Monarchy history, lesser Goddess or not. I for one would prefer her not to go away. (EDIT) An extremely prominent, albeit short-lived guild (the Romany Reii) was born due to, (or to facilitate), her appearance. At least that's what my dodgy memory remembers. (EDIT)

I am having a hard enough time understanding the transition without changing history.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Shifty » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:02 pm

For my part, I'd do her. Godess or not.

(I know you missed me Suv :wink: )
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Dyvim Tvar » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:04 pm

Entirely unshocking news.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby SoulDemon » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:28 pm

Truth? I would rather see her disappear entirely than see the work that Rob Mather and I did seven years ago be disrespected to the point that her story morphs into the load of crap posted by one of the forum members above.


Truth? I thought you went crying away when your rewritten version of Monarchy/Canon history was shot to pieces. Interesting that you come back now.
Oleana was a very small part of the overall history of this game. Less then a year. You place ALOT of importance on her inclusion when honestly she was the shortest change to the game we've ever had.

I'll be honest - you are one hell of a writer and I'm not sure at what point you became a whining baby about all things related to you. We offered ANYONE the ability to throw their ideas into this mix and you are the only one that went crying away when someone dared challenge your vision of things. Kaz is trying to tie 10 years of history together for the benefit of the players. I personally don't think it can happen as I've outlined several times in several posts.

I'm sorry to say that you and Crom may have written the backstory for Oleana, but Dustin wrote the inclusion of Oleana into the game. He wrote the code, amended the storyline, and made it happen. You are more then welcomed to post anything you want on the topic of Oleana, and even despite your whining and crying I'm willing to include any and all history you have written for Oleana into a "tomb" of sorts that may not be apart of the main storyline, but can be referenced by it.

But stop with the whining and threatening to quit. Either quit and leave, or actually contribute something.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Shifty » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:51 pm

That seemed entirely unnecessary.. Granted I have been gone a long time, but Suvantar was a major player in the history of this game and deserves better than that IMHO.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby SoulDemon » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:56 pm

Lets back up a second.

Suvantar and Crom wrote the majority of the background for Oleana. I agree completely and have never once said he was not the expert on the subject.

Dustin decided to spice the game up and Suv offered him Oleana.

Dustin dumbed down (for lack of better word) the Oleana storyline and added her in. She was in the game less then a year, as Monarchy ceased to exist in November of 2001. So, using time as our method of determining "major player in the history of the game", total years of contribution of Oleana...maybe one and a half.

Total years the game has been running? Early 98 to present, ten years.

This game has run under Isonia/Darden/Foret for longer then any of the Monarchy days, the Shareplay days, or the return to the old god days. Suvantar did not play that often or have much to do with developing with any of that. I can count 5 players and 5 guilds who have had a larger impact on the game and the community using just "time played" as the qualifying criteria. So to correct your statement, Suvantar was a major player in the creation of Oleana and her storyline - and is still the expert on Oleana as far as I am concerned.

However this whole idea is not about Oleana, its about the OVERALL history of the game of which there is no one person or handful of persons who from a storyline or player standpoint have contributed more then anyone else. For as much RP as was written years ago, I can show you equal the amount of RP written in Maxim, and equal the amount of domination of certain guilds in the past 2-3 years.

My...pointedness to Suv isn't about any of that - its about the shitty post he made when his revision of Monarchy history was written (by him) and shot down by people who actually played back then and remembered what happened. Oleana was not that big of an addition to the game that it should dominate the entire early game storyline, and Suv didn't like that and threw a tantrum. I'm very adament about not changing history because it makes combining the storylines easier. That includes the contribution of Oleana, or speculating about her divinity or death. I think I have been at least consistant with that.

If Suv, or you for that matter which to contribute then please - feel free. If we ever get this done I have never once said I am not open or welcomed to adding as a reference point ANYTHING that anyone has. That includes Suv's written work about Oleana and her rise to goddess status. I just don't feel that should dominate the "official" storyline as it was but a small part of the storyline.

thats all.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Reggie » Sat May 03, 2008 6:54 am

All right. I gave myself a couple of days to let my irritation diminish before replying to this. I considered the best way of doing it and came to the conclusion that, as someone who doesn't write creatively, or at least has never displayed to us the desire to write creatively, there's no real way for you to understand how insulting what you and Maverick have done here is.

Look, Brian, I don't play your game anymore. I involved myself in this discussion solely because Kaz seemed to want people to contribute to a conversation that might result in fostering the return of a roleplaying environment to this game and I happened to be passing through and noticed the conversation. You basically ended the conversation when you not just shut down my ideas but every idea that every player had to that point.

Do you notice that none of those other players are involved in the discussion any longer either?

The only difference between me and them is that I told you that that I thought it was pointless to continue the discussion now. The bad-tempered bullying person you have used for your entire gaming life might have been entertaining when we were in our early twenties in Neverwinter and it might have remained moderately entertaining during the first few years here, but at 38, my only real reaction to it now is, 'Gee, it's really not all that entertaining.'

So let's go through this as rationally as possible.

1.) Why am I insulted?

Because you and Maverick, despite your status as my contemporaries in the early years of Monarchy, do not have the right to revise my stories with your memories, especially when your memories are flat-out wrong. All I have to do to verify the facts of my stories is open a file and look it up.

Everything I wrote in my 'version,' aside from the things I added because Kaz wanted references to the sun and the moons, was drawn directly from one story I wrote or another. All of it. The only thing I extrapolated differently was the fact that Oleana was different because the gift Barnabas gave her gave her a vestigial spark of divine power.

The Gypsy Cloak? He gave it to her in 'The Pax Divina and the Trial of the Heretic.'

The Long March to the west? Same story.

Her death? Already chronicled in 'The Death of the Gypsy.'

Her rise to godhood? Chronicled in 'The Pax Divina and the Arrival of the Fourth Goddess.'

The spread of the Gypsy Cult? "The Pax Divina and the Memory of Those to Come"

Proof of her divine power? "The Trial of the Paladin"

And so on, and so on, and so on.

My understanding going into this discussion was that it was supposed to be primarily about roleplay. And in this context, roleplay translates to the stories that have been written, not half-remembered conversations and suppositions about stories you apparently have never read. It was supposed to provide a roleplay foundation for the game. This meant to me that the actual things that were written automatically trumped whatever versions of Monarchy/Canon history existed only in people's minds.

Take all of this:

It seems some what strange that the rise of Oleana would have been due to Barnabas giving her any sort of gift. The original role play of the Romany was that they were the outsiders of Barnabas and in some respects being hunted down by Barnabas leaders because they were heretics. (Suvantar's rp title for himself was The Heretic because the Romany strongly disagreed with the Barnabas lords.)

At the end of the Romany Reii, I thought that Oleana cast a spell upon them to protect them and disappear.

This was all done years before Oleana would return, it is impossible to argue that Barnabas and Oleana had any sort of connection because after the Romany left, Suv created Undone with Shiola Weyland as the main character. This was before Oleana was even contemplated as a faith. It is my recollection that RR never returned after that point, so how could RR have lead the Barnabas faith?

Its completely rewriting history as the Romany were only around for less than a year, and Oleana did not appear until years after their disappearance.

There is no Barnabas rp that would suggest Oleana was anything more than a mortal or false idol outside of the Romany, so by making this the history you would be basically saying RR was Barnabas which would entirely change the true history of that faith.

The reason Oleana returned was not to help Barnabas, it was to weaken Barnabas. That was why the faith was brought in because Barnabas had been to powerful and they felt that if there were 4 faiths it would make it more even.


I am not upset about any of this because it is a slanted and biased version of my role in the game. At this point, why would I care about my role in the game? I haven't played for nearly four years. I am upset because, as a creator, every single line of this is a direct contradiction of something that either I wrote or that one of my friends wrote.

At first he denies the most central tenet of the Oleana histories, the gift of the Gypsy Cloak. Then he denies her role as savior by diminishing the Romany as 'outsiders' instead of a mass exodus of refugees that were rescued from the Angelican/Letite purges during the age of Key. He clearly never read the 'Trial of the Heretic,' because his rationale for why Suvantar was called the Heretic is so far off-base, it would take me about twenty paragraphs just to explain why he is wrong.

His next line indicates that Oleana 'cast a spell' on the Romany following her ascension to Godhood. Again, this is a clear indication that he never read the story. Otherwise he would know that she simple removed them from the world. Sorcerors and magicians cast spells. Gods simply enact their will. They simply make things happen.

He then again denies one of the central tenets of the Oleana histories by denying any connection between Oleana and Barnabas despite the fact that their connection was clearly detailed in one of the earliest chapters of the Trial of the Heretic. He then denies the fact that Oleana had even been contemplated as a faith despite the fact the The Arrival of the Fourth Goddess had already been written for several months by that point.

He finally settles into a series of rather illogical and half-baked assumptions based on the already factually inaccurate set of premises he has already established. Probably the strangest of them all is the assertion that there was no 'Barnabas rp' to suggest this or that about Oleana. My answer to this is simple. During those years, there was very little actual roleplay in the game. That didn't happen until the diversification of writing after the establishment of Mo Pri, when the quality of it diminished because it became a chore that was enforced for the majority of players doing it.

Prior to that, and correct me if I am wrong, (with specific examples if you would), there were about three guilds that actually engaged in heavy roleplay. The Velken Velve. The Suzerain of Sloth. And the Romany Reii. Of the three, other than the occasional foray into it by Murchad and various responses to him in his threads, the only guild that actively roleplayed the story of any god was the Romany Reii.

In fact, as far as I know, and again, correct me if I am wrong, (with specific examples), the only guild that has ever actively roleplayed any stories featuring any of the Monarchy or Canon deities has been the Romany Reii.

You see, this is the point. Is what I am saying about Maverick ticky-tack? Yes. Should he be expected to remember the exact details of stories that he probably never read when those stories are ten years old? Probably not. But here is the issue, if you both are going to claim with absolute authority that your version of the roleplay history of the game and especially of this particular period of history is superior to mine, you'd better not make basic mistakes about the details of the stories. You especially should not make foundational mistakes with every sentence that you write about them.

So why am I insulted? Because both of you, as non-roleplayers, have taken it upon yourselves to revise clearly detailed elements of my stories simply because you remember things differently. Not because you have any compelling evidence that your version is superior, only an assertion that you remember things better than I wrote them down in my stories. So you feel free to take a dump on what I created and completely ignore the time and effort and creativity that went into the work. And as people who have never done it, you exercise that sense of entitlement with the air of supreme authority even when you are wrong.

2.) You are even wrong about your assumptions of how Oleana even came into the game.

Oleana was a very small part of the overall history of this game. Less then a year. You place ALOT of importance on her inclusion when honestly she was the shortest change to the game we've ever had.


This is true insofar as she was only a playable goddess for about a year. However, it ignores the two years of building that led to her inclusion. It also ignores the fact that at the same time she was removed, the other gods were also removed. It is a way to belittle her, yes, and on the surface appears to be compelling, but Oleana was around from the first day I was around because I wrote the 'Fire that Kills' the first day I started playing the game and Oleana was featured in that story.

I place a lot of importance on her inclusion because frankly she is the only deity in the history of the game anyone really knows anything about. We were never allowed to write anything definitive about Barnabas, Angelique, Leto, Foret, Isonia, or Darden. Dustin reserved that privilege for himself and either he was too lazy to ever develop them or never much cared. The other gods and goddesses have never been much more than blurbs. We were allowed to speculate about them, but nothing was ever verified and nothing else was ever added. Well, until now that is, but unfortunately, when you shut down the discussion that might have finally developed them, you shut down the chance for them to be truly developed too.

So you tell me, as a writer submitting a variant of the history of the gods and goddesses, which one would you devote your time and energy to? The one that you know intimately because the entire span of her history has already been chronicled, whether you actually bothered to read that chronicling or not, or the blurbs? Why am I supposed to devote more time and energy in my story to Barnabas? Because somewhere in the back of Maverick's mind, Barnabas was always the most powerful god, even though in a literary sense, for the last ten years, he has been nothing officially more than a single sentence or two?

I'm sorry to say that you and Crom may have written the backstory for Oleana, but Dustin wrote the inclusion of Oleana into the game. He wrote the code, amended the storyline, and made it happen.


Well, you are incorrect about this as well. Dustin did not write the inclusion of Oleana into the game. He did not amend the storyline. I did. He asked for one edit, because he thought my original blurb was a bit too long, so I deleted one sentence. Then he cut and pasted it. As far as the code is concerned, within five minutes of us agreeing to Oleana, he created an Oleana kingdom. Within two hours of the conversation, there were Oleana realms actively being played. To that extent, I don't think the code changes were that extensive. I suppose you are correct in that Dustin was the one who renamed the spells initially and then changed the effects of the two Oleana spells that were different.

Look, I am not diminishing what Dustin did. You are simply very wrong about how all of it came about.

There was no concern on his part about making me 'too powerful.' At least he never vocalized a concern about that to me. I am not even sure what 'too powerful' would mean in this context. What was this supposed original story that he evidently rejected supposed to have allowed me to do that any other player could not have done? And as far as Oleana is concerned, Brian, the man was making her a goddess in his game. How much 'more powerful' could you make her than that?

Yes, there were ideas I had for her faith that he rejected in Raleigh. Of course, there were ideas that everyone in that forum had for every faith that were also rejected in Raleigh. I always assumed those rejections had far more to do with the difficulties in implementing them in code than with the notion that it was making me 'too powerful.' How exactly does making an Oleana kingdom twice as strong on defense, but half as powerful on offense make me or the goddess 'more powerful?'

I am honestly pretty baffled.

And honestly, I have gone on longer with this than I ever intended to do. I think whatever point I've been making has either been made or already ignored, but I do think it points to what I was saying earlier. At this point, it would be better to just delete references to her from your game. After all, at this point, it is your game. I don't have anything to do with it.

And we are clearly not going to agree. In your eyes, what I have done is somehow a 'revision.' In my eyes, what you are doing is corrupting what I and others put untold hours of energy and effort and creativity into doing. I don't think there's very much room for reconciliation between those particular points of view.

It isn't an unreasonable request. From the tone of your posts, you obviously have no intention of respecting my work or the work of those who surrounded me in those days. I question whether you actually have any intention of trying to foster a roleplay environment here at all. Honestly, the object lesson for any creator reading any of this is pretty crappy, Brian. Basically, the only thing that any of them could take away from this is to beware of anything they write here because in a few years, if people don't happen to agree with the things they write in story form, they will feel free to revise them and basically try to tell them that they never wrote them in the first place.

So please. I am asking you as the friends we once were. I have no desire for my stories to be part of the legacy of this game. Throughout my years here, even through all of the arguments and backbiting and hostility, I always assumed that there was a core of friendship and respect there, but I seem to have been wrong. So you have succeeded in doing what none of those other lousy events in the history of the game have ever managed to do. You have managed to make me genuinely regret ever having played here.

So please. Just remove her.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Shifty » Sat May 03, 2008 8:50 am

First of all, Suv, get in touch with me please. ICQ 7825879 - Yahoo - justshifty2000

Secondly, and please do not dismiss this:

Maybe it's time to start a fresh, brand new storyline.

Maybe all this "tradition" people seem so concerned with following is more of a burden then anything else. There is obvious confusion, and there always will be. The truth is the people who ran this game at the time of it's inception did not involve themselves as much with the story development as they should have. Oh sure there are arguments for and against this sort of strategy, on one hand by being more "aloof" they allowed for more creativity from the players, hoever by doing that they also left a lot of loops holes in the story that could be translated in many ways.

People, this is NOT the Holy Bible here, there is no reason why at least some of the key roles can't be more clearly defined and used as anchors for others to latch onto and build off of.

There is a core group of verteran players here who stuck around here for something, is it the game? In some cases I am sure it is, the thrill of taking down a guild and stirring the pots in the forums, waiting for the reactions, a lot of us love that stuff sure, but it gets tiresome after you needle the same people over and over getting the same reactions. Is it the RP? I don't see an awful lot of RP here right now, that's not to say that I haven't missed something, I am just returning after an 8 year or so hiatus afterall, but it is clearly not what it used to be.

What does that leave? Camraderie? You guys stay here because you like each other. That's possible, and if that's the case lets build on it.

What could be done to improve this enviroment?

Well, it clearly needs an influx of new blood. Again, speaking as a member who has been gone a long time, I can say I am having a hard time figuring out how I can fit into all of this. Mind you, I have a leg up on Joe Noob who happens to stumble onto this game, I don't feel overwhelmed by SD's abuse or Suv's deep historical references, but I still don't see any way to fit in without starting something fresh - rp-wise.

New ideas. Ok yeah, I saw efforts to spark some interest in continuing the storyline, but I also saw different opinions and quite frankly an absolute morass of undigestible history that left me reeling. There is a time for flaming and stirring the pot and a time to cooperate. When you are trying to foster ideas it might be better to respect some of the more tempermental personalities, these are the people who generally have more feeling and passion, and because of that more creative talent and the initiative to use it. The very ones who are chased out by flaming are more than likely the ones that will contribute most consistently to RP - your anchors.

A return of some traditions from the past may get veterans to return, and they have been out in the world, they have new friends they could bring along as well. I am not sure what this would involve exactly, but I am sure somebody could come up with an idea or two...

People could be drawn back into this game based on a new storyline and a chance to really contribute alone. These are the people you WANT here, not the fly-by-night guy who plays an age or two, posts flames and shoots his mouth off then disappears. There will always be a handful of these, there always has been, but why not have them be the minority as they should be?

I don't want to ramble on too much further here, lets see some feedback. Thanks for your time in reading this, I hope it makes some sense to everyone, not just my "allies."

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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby SoulDemon » Sat May 03, 2008 10:40 am

Mike, (Since we are going with real names like the friends we once were)

To be totally honest I'm not sure at what point you and I came to be on opposite sides of just about everything. As I recall most of your problems were with Dustin and he was the one who more often then not was the decision maker in removing you or putting you in the internet version of time out. But its clearly obvious that you have contempt for me and as you said nothing I say is going to change that.

But having said that, lets see how far I can go.

1.) Issue #1 - I'm not a "creative writer" and have never written anything of substance. Ok, while mildly insulting I'll go along with that because in your mind all you remember me for is as you said, being very vocal on the boards and intimidating people. The truth is I've done my fair share of writing both in this community and other places in the past. I don't expect you to acknowledge that because you honestly haven't known me for what, almost eight years? And before that we were never really that close of friends. I've never written a complete history of a character, had it published or included into a game - but to be honest I've never claimed to say I'm a better writer then you. Truth be told my last bit of 'creativity' was rather recent, and within my first couple of posts some people actually thought I might be you or working with you, which I took as one huge compliment because despite what you may think I've always held you and a few others (Murchad, Dustin etc.) to be some of the best writers who's works I've ever read.

2.) Issue #2 - I'm trying to stifle creativity and denounce roleplay and writing. This one I will take exception too. Kaz may be the one who contacted you or who you went looking for in regards to bringing roleplay back to the community. But I'm just as much behind this 'project' as he is, or anyone else in this place. Which is why we are at this juncture now. I've spent alot of time with Dustin, I used to live with the guy for crying out loud. Just about every conversation we would have regarding Evernight and its future revolved around new games, new storylines, what his vision was. Hell, we actually wrote a damn game called "Warline" on a trip to St. Louis and back to drop his daughter off. We talked it out the entire trip and upon our return had everything in our minds we needed to write it. Unfortunately and as history has shown its very hard to develop another game, for some reason harder for us. But I'll go out on a limb and say that I'm pretty sure I've got the best interest in the community at heart and have for a very long time. There's a reason I've carried the burdon of providing this place for almost 7 years now, soley by myself with little to no help. (Although Crom and I split costs for half a year.) To claim anything else, especially since you have appeared, then disappeared, then reappeared, then disappeared and have not been much of a contributing member for most of that time - is rather insulting.

3.) Issue #3 - Your memories vs my memories and me 'shutting things down'. There are a handful of things that I'm opposed to happening, the biggest one is rewriting the actual history of the game. That and creating another god/goddess in this age of Canon are the two things I am most opposed too, and that isn't because I'm personally offended by anything anyone says, but more so as you pointed out "this is your game now" and I feel I have that responsibility to make sure that someone who existed 10 years ago and work they provided is not written out because you or anyone else present statements which were not "officially" recognized.

I'm not saying all those works you wrote are false, and knowing the type of writer you are I have no doubt that you have all of them saved with the dates you wrote them. I'm not saying they do not exist word for word as you and others wrote them years ago. What I'm saying is this.

From an official game stand point. Oleana did not exist until 2000 and she ran until the end of the game in 2001. She was a character you developed, yes. You wrote about her from the late 90's through her creation as a goddess, yes. But other members of the community were not exposed to her outside of your RP threads on a large scale until Dustin wrote her into the game. She ceased to exist when Monarchy closed down, and Dustin and I created Tidalmark Inc. and the new storyline.

Again, I mean that not to deminish anything you have written or to insult the creation of Oleana herself. Dustin went to you for a reason, and he agreed to take a character you wrote for a reason as well. Honestly it very well may have extended the life of the game long enough for us to get the hell out of Shareplay, without it Evernight may of died right then and there. Who knows.

4.) Issue #4 - Your original post. This I do have issues with and that is because it did not exist in Monarchy and it is something you put together at request from Kaz to help tie the storylines together. Again, my main concern is rewriting history. Now you may have documentation as you have claimed that supports everything you wrote, but again it was not "official" documentation or anything that Dustin wrote, or approved. The official storylines were very vague, and vague for a reason. You even admitted that.

I am not opposed to you contributing any of your stories and having them referenced during Era II and the time of Oleana. In fact the way that I envision this in my mind would be Era II being one of the richest Era's as far as written contributions by players and references go, because of what you have written and could contribute. But I am opposed to them being the "official" storyline of this Era.

5.) Issue #5 - Removing Oleana completely. To be honest I'd almost be willing to grant that request just to save us from having to type anymore. But Kaz would not allow it, that I can assure you. So while it may benefit us from not having to argue with each other, its more likely then not going to happen.

6.) Issue #6 - Maverick's posts. Honestly this you will have to take up with Maverick. I don't speak for him, but his comments did trigger some memories of things I recall a little more clearly then I did up until this point. For some reason you seem most angry at him as most of your post was dedicated to him. The only thing I have to contribute is - Maverick has been a main staple in this community for years, and as one of the longest running players we have ever known his opinions are worth listening too.

So with all that said. Personally I'm not opposed to anything you have written outside of that which is not documented official history. I've been saying for awhile now that tying these stories together is not going to be easy and I'd personally much rather leave them seperated and post the official storylines for each Era/Game and then post the supporting documentation for it as a point of reference. Kaz does not want to go that route, so I'm fine with giving him a chance to make it all happen if it can indeed happen.

I'm truely sorry that anything I have posted as caused you to be upset and all I ask is that you remember that I'm trying to keep the best interest of the community at mind. You may not agree with that as you have basically said you don't think I have a creative bone in my body and wouldn't know creativity if it bit me in the ass, but to each their own opinion. I do wish you'd stay around though. If I hated you as much as you think, and was such a bully as you say, I fail to see what I gain by allowing you to continute to post and contribute. But I'm sure you have a theory on that as well.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby SoulDemon » Sat May 03, 2008 10:55 am

Shifty,

Maybe it's time to start a fresh, brand new storyline.


I've suggested that privately, and so far it has been shot down by most of my staff. This isn't the only discussion regarding the storyline that is going on right now, just the only one that Kaz wanted players to contribute to. Ultimately, and this is my opinion, but its going to come down to either Kaz or I putting our foot down and just going with something, I don't think we can please every single person.


People, this is NOT the Holy Bible here, there is no reason why at least some of the key roles can't be more clearly defined and used as anchors for others to latch onto and build off of.


True. But the anchors that are trying to be contributed thus far, have not only rewritten history, make no sense, but have made other contributions invalid. Its hard to further define history without upsetting someone.

There is a core group of verteran players here who stuck around here for something, is it the game? In some cases I am sure it is, the thrill of taking down a guild and stirring the pots in the forums, waiting for the reactions, a lot of us love that stuff sure, but it gets tiresome after you needle the same people over and over getting the same reactions. Is it the RP? I don't see an awful lot of RP here right now, that's not to say that I haven't missed something, I am just returning after an 8 year or so hiatus afterall, but it is clearly not what it used to be.


Well honestly I'm just too lazy to cancel a credit card, LOL! But thats an interesting question, why have people stuck around.

Well, it clearly needs an influx of new blood. Again, speaking as a member who has been gone a long time, I can say I am having a hard time figuring out how I can fit into all of this. Mind you, I have a leg up on Joe Noob who happens to stumble onto this game, I don't feel overwhelmed by SD's abuse or Suv's deep historical references, but I still don't see any way to fit in without starting something fresh - rp-wise.


LMAO - What abuse? Because Mike and I have a 10 year old history that flares up once in awhile and you haven't been around for 8 years of that I'm suddenly "abusive". Thats absurd. Abuse would be not allowing him to even debate with me, muchless insult me or contribute.

Kaz's whole point for this storyline is so new players can start something fresh, RP wise. So if after your 8 year vacation thats the feeling that you come in with..then great. Kaz's goal is met.

When you are trying to foster ideas it might be better to respect some of the more tempermental personalities, these are the people who generally have more feeling and passion, and because of that more creative talent and the initiative to use it. The very ones who are chased out by flaming are more than likely the ones that will contribute most consistently to RP - your anchors.


Thanks for the advise. Out of curiosity, what online community are you basing this advise on?

People could be drawn back into this game based on a new storyline and a chance to really contribute alone. These are the people you WANT here, not the fly-by-night guy who plays an age or two, posts flames and shoots his mouth off then disappears. There will always be a handful of these, there always has been, but why not have them be the minority as they should be?


Kaz, Sunny (until his departure) and I have been working on ideas to draw people back into the game behind the scenes. Right now we are waiting until the reset before persuing many of them as it makes no sense to heavily try and draw players in, in the middle of an age. Not to mention, most of these ideas are not cheap and at this point there is no real world money being made here. But there are ideas, although at least one of them involves this storyline business.

I don't want to ramble on too much further here, lets see some feedback. Thanks for your time in reading this, I hope it makes some sense to everyone, not just my "allies."


Oh please do ramble on - and I mean that honestly. I can take your pot shots and insults with the best of them, been doing it for years now :) If thats what it takes for you to be able to post an opinion, then by all means continue to do so.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Shifty » Sat May 03, 2008 11:18 am

If you feel the point of that post was to take pot shots at you I think I wasted my time.

I would honestly like to help rebuild this game, and I am sure there are plenty of others that would like that opportunity as well - you just have to be willing to allow them access to do so. Obviously an open forum making the decisions would be impractical, but an open forum throwing ideas around that you and your team use as a basis for something new would certainly give people a stronger feeling of "belonging".

The more a person feels that they "belong" the more loyal they become, the more apt they are to pull more people in, the more apt they are to go through the trouble of helping new players fit in and the more apt they are to make solid contributions.

It's that whole dominoe affect thing.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Shifty » Sat May 03, 2008 11:33 am

Oh, and for the record, I won't rush to judge you SD, but the first few things you have posted certainly don't appear to be very different from the way you were when I left.

Also, for the record, it surprises me also to hear that you have been published. I am not saying that to be insulting, I just never remember seeing you any serious writing or even showing interest in doing so.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby SoulDemon » Sat May 03, 2008 11:47 am

This has been an open forum for a while now. Started out as restricted to only people who showed an interest but we opened it up.
Our ideas are out there, every single post Kaz or Sunblade have made has been either our ideas, or ideas presented to us.

Not sure what else you want to be perfectly honest.

I'm becoming more annoyed with this whole process. It reminds me alot of everytime we would make a game change and would allow players to contribute opinions. Half the game love it, half hate it and a small minority would threaten to quit/leave/destroy you as a result of it. We learned pretty quickly that the whole theory behind involving the community so they would 'belong' was bad. People do not want to belong or to be apart of the development process. They want someone who will make a decision and then they can pick that decision apart.

Unfortunately that is where I think we are going with this. We have another few weeks to hammer it out before the reset, and some of that time is going to require us to finish laying down our plans so we can actually try to promote the game.

I think another couple days of "discussion" and Kaz and I are just going to agree upon something and go with it, if people hate it... well I'm sure we will hear about it one way or the other.

Thanks for the opinions though.


EDIT - What are you talking about first few things I've said? You mean the 'first few things' you've chosen to read. This board has been active since 2002 (everything past was lost in a wipe unfortunately), I have 11,000 posts as "SoulDemon", probably a couple hundred to a thousand as BGoff. I would hope that you read more then a couple of them before you 'judge me'. As for being published - please. Anyone can write a shitty poem and pay $20 to have it appear in a poetry book and consider themselves published. Is that any measure of how well someone writes? I know you haven't been around in 8 or so years so you probably have missed alot of my posts about my life and my past. I'll condense it for you.

This is the only place on the internet that I am known as "SoulDemon". I gave up using that name shortly after I was banned from LoE. Every other game I play in, from browser-based to MMPOG I use a variety of different online names. The clan I've been involved in since the NWN days, I'm known under a different name. SoulDemon is not a character, I don't write stories about him and haven't for a very long time. This is an OOC posting name, I'm the owner/designer/administrator of an online board game and online community. If you are looking for creativity under this name, you will have to dig back to BH and my early days to find any. Well, you might find some poetry here and there but I digress.

Not sure when this transitioned from being about a storyline, to being about me and how you percieve me to be. But if thats a concern for you let me put it to rest. I honestly am not all that concerned with who likes me and who doesn't like me. So as I said, whatever helps you contribute then please, keep on doing it - even if its at my expense :)
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Shifty » Sat May 03, 2008 1:17 pm

I will in no way claim to have gone through 8 years of posts, I have no intention of doing so. All I have is recent stuff to go with here, but I don't want to go any further with that really. I am done with my jabs, I would much rather get an idea of where you guys are thinking of going with this?

Can you give us some idea?? Give us a chance to give a little input?

When I suggest start fresh, I am talking RADICALLY fresh, I wish others would put their 2 cents in here...
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Kaz » Sat May 03, 2008 7:31 pm

Shifty,

My intention with this forum was to fill two gaps in Evernight history, come up with a new kingdom creation story, and a selection of longer more detailed resources, that people can chose to read if they wish to understand the world better.

This game basically has a selection of eras

Monarchy
Era 1. Gods: Barnabas, Angelique and Leto
Era 2. Gods: Barnabas, Angelique, Leto and Oleana

Evernight
PreBeta. Prophets: Mina, Diman and Solas
Era 3. Gods: Foret, Angelique, Darden
Era 4. Mortals: Barnabas, Angelique and Leto

There is no storyline link that moves the game from the Old to New gods, there is also no storyline between the time of the Maxim gods, and the reintroduction of the original gods as mortals.

That's what I'm trying to establish.
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Re: Era II - Goddess Ascendant (Barnabas/Angelique/Leto/Oleana)

Postby Nether » Mon May 05, 2008 8:56 pm

To be honest I love reading stuff like this, it gives those of us who are just now getting truly intrested, in the storyline and its history, a glimpse into what we've missed out on all these years. Its intresting to see where the ideas we have been playing with come from and to discover those who helped contribute to thier creation.

As far as the comment made about no one posting here anymore, that is simple to explain. As far as I know most of the people who are playing now have limited knowledge of the RP side of the game today and even fewer still paid much attention all those years ago. I for one remember the inclussion of the 2nd Goddess into the game, I was younger then and couldn't care less for who she was and the creative proccess behind her creation. All I knew was that there was a 4th God and that the game just got that much cooler. Now that i've matured abit (and yes I have matured regardless of what you bastards think) My intrest into that aspect of Oleana has grown greatly. Now that the thrill of war isn't the only thing that keeps me around I am eager to gain everybit of knowledge about the game that has kept me hooked for all these years.

So to Kaz and SD and all those working behind the scenes keep up the good work. There are those of us who greatly appreciate the effort and are waiting on pins and needles for the finished product.
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