Another sneak attack hits DEM -sigh- (TRC vs DEM?)

[General Andy Icarn]

I love being online when someone loots me and taking a scrollread and then another one a few minutes later and comparing the two and then next day taking it all back in land.

[~Vox~]

I like looting and/or burning and watching others get the blame and starting a war.


Gili taught me well.

:laughs:

[GoldWyvern]

i recruited Old Crow back to the game, despite all the 'better' games (matter of opinion) that was out there. He has a great machine and can play anything he wanted. He played because I asked him to 'get us to 7 so we can at least be listed'.

Since then, he's played excellently. He's able to do things with his kingdom that not many can match - bounce back when I make mistakes in diplomacy or just plain counting on allies that I shouldn't of counted on (because the next day they were attacked, or what not). He is an excellent player.

He has now quit DEM and will delete from guilds as soon as people stop attacking him. Hopefully he will be an asset in some other Evernight game, he's talking about Covenet - maybe. I'm advising him against it because Angelique has such a stranglehold there right now, and like me, he won't play anything but Angie.

Still, you have to remember - these are people playing, and age by age we are losing people to.. bullshit.

It wasn't right that Makato was scum attacked. I suppose it wasn't right that I asked Old Crow to counter attack - because I thought it was a prerequisite to war, and I wanted to get first strike advantage on the only vunerable target I knew, before the big warrior kingdoms came in. I didn't want to talk, I wanted action.

Still, Old Crow - the War AGM and man online at the time, spoke with TRC and gave logs, and he thought things were over. He was a man about it, and was willing to let things go.

Then almost ALL of TRC attacked him, wiping him out. Because of this, and the impression that DEM is now the dog to kick this age, many members of DEM have departed and gone elsewhere - either quit the game or joined other guilds. We're down to six.

TRC, you have finally managed a true defeat. This guild will not be 'coming back', this guild will not seek revenge a later time this age (or next age, if we were dishonerable, which we never have been).

We're gone. For good, at least until the atmosphere of the game changes.

Honor does not exist to make people 'feel good' or for the reasons we preserve honor in real life - the difference between right and wrong. Honor exists in this game so that battles are fair, and this game doesn't become a big mass of everyone attacking everyone, and nobody but a select few 'lucky' people getting to the top simply because they happened to be overlooked.

It is so those with real skill can excel, and those without it can learn to excel. Which catagory does DEM fit into? A teaching guild, a learning guild.. except, with the unguildeds and constant little things like this, there is hardly room to teach any longer.

Only defend ourselves.

[Alex_Greystone]

You're a complete and utter idiot. It wasn't anywhere close to every kingdom in TRC attacking your member. It was 5 kingdoms, not counting the attack I made to break ambush. I'll give you this though, if I had more on, I'd have killed the kingdom.

You brought this COMPLETELY on yourself. Listen to what you said:

I didn't want to talk, I wanted action.

Guess what? You got action. If you had spoken to me before you hit Kane, I would have given you the money back with interest because I didn't want to waste the turns on DEM. You wanted to go the military route. Well, I'm happy to oblige you.

I hate to see people leave the game, but there is such a thing as addition by subtraction. I doubt you'll be missed.

[Virch]

if a trc realm was being looted and caught the guy doing it..........trc would attack that realm and ask questions later........now this might be unfair because khal started that long before you alex....but none the less, it dont go both ways. and being biggest doesnt make you right................

[GoldWyvern]

My AGM of War (now gone) *DID* talk to you. According to him, you two settled the matter and you two brokered peace. I was talking to him about maybe making some recompencence for what had happened.

A couple hours later, you attacked and destroyed him.

You are a backstabber, and a liar. I want nothing to do with you. No matter what I may do in later ages, I will remember the *very* OOC betrayal that you brought upon me. That doesn't mean I'll ask for people to attack you, or what not.. but I'll remind them of what sort of 'peace treaties' you broker.

[_Nagash_]

My AGM of War (now gone) *DID* talk to you. According to him, you two settled the matter and you two brokered peace. I was talking to him about maybe making some recompencence for what had happened.

A couple hours later, you attacked and destroyed him.

You are a backstabber, and a liar. I want nothing to do with you. No matter what I may do in later ages, I will remember the *very* OOC betrayal that you brought upon me. That doesn't mean I'll ask for people to attack you, or what not.. but I'll remind them of what sort of 'peace treaties' you broker.

I take it this isn't about Virch?

[Alex_Greystone]

My AGM of War (now gone) *DID* talk to you. According to him, you two settled the matter and you two brokered peace. I was talking to him about maybe making some recompencence for what had happened.

Again, I'm not sure if you're stupid or misinformed. I asked him for the news of what Kane did. He sent me that news and I sent him back "okay" to signify that I got it. I said nothing about peace, I made no promises about anything. He never even asked if we were done with this or if TRC planned any action. You assumed that TRC would accept what happened to them like you assumed you could get away with it in the first place.

You have already stated that you were pissed and didn't want to talk, you wanted action. And after you had your action, you couldn't wait to run to the boards and tell everyone what a bad ass you are. Now that someone has punched you back, you've crawled back under mama's skirt and complaining about how unfair the world is.

I hope you come back for many ages. You're good for a laugh.


And Virch, TNE would have done the same thing, if you didn't decide to destroy the entire guild. Don't give me the "biggest doesn't make you right" stuff either. The strongest guild in every age makes policy. That's how it's always been and that's how it will always be. TNE has a history of being as heavy-handed as any other guild.

[Venus]

LMAO!


how is it ooc betrayal?

and what peace treaty. id be interested to know exactly why he thought he had peace



dear god, just lose the drama gw.

[Torkano]

Here's a question. If you planned on destroying him anyway, why did you ask for the news? Makes no sense to me. Maybe I don't know what's going on, but maybe someone can make a detailed play by play. Like did Old Crow get destroyed completely before or after news was asked for and given?

[Venus]

why would that possibly matter

if the news wanst recieved does that mean the land wasnt really taken from trc?

[_Nagash_]

That would make it an odd argument though.



> Yes it did
< No it didn't
> Yes it did
< No it didn't



etc.

[Torkano]

I'm taking about the news of the looting. Didn't Alex ask for the news of the caught looting? Then smacked the hell out of Old Crow afterwards? My question is why ask for news if he planned on tagging him anyway. Granted both sides should have talked to the GMs first but just wondering why ask for the news, then hit him to nothing after getting it.

edit:
I mean if you are going to hit anyway for Old Crow retaliating, who cares about the news of looting. Why ask for it?

[Venus]

well first off
i think tork is talking about the news of trc looting dem


not the news of dem hitting trc and taking land

land is > than money

built land takes more turns than getting loot or cash
so hitting someone for looting is not quite the same as contacting someone about it.

therefore thats why i asked, even if he didnt recieve the news, does that mean that dem dint take trcs land:p


i imagine he asked for news because he wanted to check the number caught looting
ive seen the scouts be so outdated before that guilds get blamed for it when they kingdom has already moved on weeks ago

so asking for news is pretty standard no matter what responds your going to give.

[_Nagash_]

I'm taking about the news of the looting. Didn't Alex ask for the news of the caught looting? Then smacked the hell out of Old Crow afterwards? My question is why ask for news if he planned on tagging him anyway. Granted both sides should have talked to the GMs first but just wondering why ask for the news, then hit him to nothing after getting it.

Apart from it being a weird course to take..... how would it matter? O.o

[Venus]

its not that weird


when told that trc was cautght looting, Any gms initial reaction is to ask for news

i know i wouldnt have known what course i was gonna take right away

i generally try adn think things thru before i act


so the initial reaction is. "can i see the news"

or at least mine is.

then i decide based on that


again though
why would it matter that he asked for news?

[_Nagash_]

Cuz people who ask for news are poopy heads!

[Torkano]

That's why I was wanting to know a play by play sort of. Like Old Crow caught Kane. Old Crow hit Kane. Did Kane tell Alex that Old Crow hit him and therefore know that it was Kane that got hit? GW makes post about it. Did Kane fess up to Alex as to why he was hit? Alex asks for news. Old Crow gives it. Old Crow gets hit down after sending the news. Seems like a mess with alot of holes that need filled.

[Alex_Greystone]

In GW's initial post, and Old Crow's they use the same language. Allow me to quote GW:

I get a report today, someone else has hit DEM.

I don't know about anyone else here, but when I see the word "hit", I take that to mean military action, that land was taken. And in Old Crow's post he says he randomly "hit" the offender, which he did and took land. No one in TRC was supposed to be attacking anyone, so I asked for the news to see what kingdom had attacked a DEM kingdom.

Old Crow sent me the news, which consisted of him getting looted and catching Kane in the act of said looting. Once I saw that they had attacked a TRC kingdom for scum action, what I had to do was crystal clear. That simply cannot be allowed. Land is harder to get than money and 4k worth of built land is precious.

As soon as I got the news from Old Crow, I went to work finding TRC kingdoms to destroy the offending DEM kingdom. When I had enough, he was destroyed. I'm sure DEM would have loved for me to have told them in advance this is what I was going to do, but that isn't a luxury they extended to TRC. They attacked with no warning and posted about it after. TRC did the exact same thing. DEM decided the direction this would go. If they're not smart enough to realize how it would end for them, that is not my fault. And lets keep in mind here, that kingdom was destroyed a few hours after I got the news. I didn't wait days or weeks.

[_Nagash_]

In GW's initial post, and Old Crow's they use the same language. Allow me to quote GW:

I get a report today, someone else has hit DEM.

I don't know about anyone else here, but when I see the word "hit", I take that to mean military action, that land was taken. And in Old Crow's post he says he randomly "hit" the offender, which he did and took land. No one in TRC was supposed to be attacking anyone, so I asked for the news to see what kingdom had attacked a DEM kingdom.

Old Crow sent me the news, which consisted of him getting looted and catching Kane in the act of said looting. Once I saw that they had attacked a TRC kingdom for scum action, what I had to do was crystal clear. That simply cannot be allowed. Land is harder to get than money and 4k worth of built land is precious.

As soon as I got the news from Old Crow, I went to work finding TRC kingdoms to destroy the offending DEM kingdom. When I had enough, he was destroyed. I'm sure DEM would have loved for me to have told them in advance this is what I was going to do, but that isn't a luxury they extended to TRC. They attacked with no warning and posted about it after. TRC did the exact same thing. DEM decided the direction this would go. If they're not smart enough to realize how it would end for them, that is not my fault. And lets keep in mind here, that kingdom was destroyed a few hours after I got the news. I didn't wait days or weeks.

Ha! Then you've filled Torkano's holes!

And justified what happened imo.

[Torkano]

"i imagine he asked for news because he wanted to check the number caught looting
ive seen the scouts be so outdated before that guilds get blamed for it when they kingdom has already moved on weeks ago "


What I'm really saying is, did Alex know who looted Old Crow and who Old Crow hit before hitting Old Crow? If so, then the news isn't really important then is it? I mean to use your example, if the point of the news is to see if the number is still a member of TRC, why ask for it if he already knew?

edit:
NM Alex already answered lol

[GoldWyvern]

Not that it really matters, but here is the chain of events:

1. Makato (not Old Crow) sends a report to GM of DEM (me) about being scummed and looted.

2. Since we're under constant attack by unguildeds, I order a strike against the scummer, assuming it is yet another restart. Old Crow takes action.

3. I get reports that almost all other DEM kingdoms were scouted/looted the last 24 hours. Finding this non-status quo, I check the number in the database. I discover the scummer is TRC.

4. Old Crow is informed, as the war AGM.

5. Old Crow requests scout reports, and as I am busy elsewhere (on another, barely working machine at the time without ICQ), I let him handle negotiations.

6. Old Crow informs me he finished speaking with GM of TRC, I assumed he ment the matter was settled.

7. Various unguilded's strike (most likely unrelated).

8. TRC almost kills Old Crow. Old Crow leaves Evernight.

9. I put on my banner to let people make the decision either to stay and stand by DEM through this firestorm of unguildeds/TRC, or join other guilds. Under the circumstances.. many leave/quit the game.

10. I post angrily a few times but generally don't care much, more interested in more honorable games.

Now, I was under the impression that asking for scout reports was a prerequiste for peaceful negotiations. Why would I do you the *favor* of providing reports which reveal my guild's kingdom numbers, and save you time from having to seek out your own members reports, if I did not expect something in return? At least a chat.

Instead, you pool five kingdoms together and destroy Old Crow. A good, solid player who's never done anyone harm other then the occasional practical joke.. a good poster, and not prone to long political speeches like I am.

Now he's gone, and it's because of the school yard bully.

How many times have I had said to me, 'we should attack these guys, they just came out of war' or 'they are below us, none of them are ever online, let's kill them..' and I've said 'no, it wouldn't be right.'

How many times have you said that? By your actions today, I would suggest none - and that is why I do not have any respect for you.

If it had been just a revenge hit, you would of taken the land back that had been taken from you. If it had been a revenge hit, you would of taken it one-on-one. Instead, you involve five members and they beat him mercilessly.

We both made mistakes handling this - and to cover your shame, instead of admitting our errors you instead covered it up. You know your guild was stronger, so you used the tactics of evil.

Of a bully.

I have nothing more to say to you, Alex_Greystone. You've made your case and I have made mine. I have shown that I can be at times whiney, and arrogant and perhaps my judgement sucks more often then not. You've shown character within you I'd rather not associate with, and your replies only reinforce that.

I do not know what DEM will do next age, if it will remain or not. Either way, Alex_Greystone.. I respectfully ask that you never speak to me again. I do not associate with your kind.

[GoldWyvern]

<double double your pleaaasure.. double double your posting..>

[Old Crow]

I did not leave all together.. Just playing solo only. No problems over there cept... who ever kepts scouting me over there, shit or get off the pot! I had to triple my Cities