The War of No Options: TRC vs. MuM / LKA / HUMAN / DOC

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Postby Janiec » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:05 pm

LKA is useless on this war. No faith DB accesss. No offensive capabilities. No threat at all! Pathetic!

We are up for peace and i hope TRC will be hit by Leto right away after this war :evil:
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Postby Venus » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:07 pm

LOL!!!!
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Postby Gerien » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:13 pm

Khalistov wrote:I have just spoken with Harmony, and we have established a ceasefire with DoC while waiting for the other guilds to come to a mutual agreement.

We were at war?
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Postby Hatama » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:26 pm

*Whips Gerien*

LOL, poor Ger! :snm:

Don't you read the banner? :?

Edit: Khal, didn't I tell you most of my guild was inactive?

It's sad when your AGM of War doesn't even know you were at war! :action1:
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Postby General Andy Icarn » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:04 am

Posting stats after the first strike will always give the impression that it's a bad hit.


That's why the attacking guild is supposed to post them. :roll:

All you accomplished with the stats you posted was to prove that for the first time this age, TRC performed an an attack with the precision and efficiency that is expected of it.


Yes if someone had posted the stats from before the war and they were halfway decent you could have proven exactly that. Now nobody knows what it means or what difference is caused by the hit and what was there from the start.

If you think it's a bad hit, post the stats from before the first strike.


I am not your firking towelboy you sicko, post your own prestats, you know when you'll be attacking after all. :shock:
And who said it was a bad hit? Please quote anyone who did.

How long the game has been played has nothing to do with stats. Stats used to never be posted and no one cared. The only reason stats are posted now are so people can spin it however they want.


You talk about how you don't care what sort of hits you make but you are afraid to post the stats of your hits. You want to hit as you please but not allow people to see what sort of hit you made. If you want to play "mr. badass no-rules" then DO IT for goodness' sake, don't pussyfoot about when your reputation is on the line.

edit: Castaway had some of the most ruthless players in the game, but even they would take credit for their actions and even happily deal with the consequences they entailed.

What spin? There is no spin. They are stats. They don't lie. If there's any spin it's yours to control since you are the attackers taking the prestats. If you want to say someone's low worth cause of news or troop types carried or lack thereof there's room in forum for that too. But the stats themselves don't have a spin, that's why it's the best way to start a war thread.
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Postby Dyvim Tvar » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:54 am

Again with the talk about Castaway. I swear if I hear about that game one more time I'm going to kick a puppy!;-p
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Postby Alex_Greystone » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:24 am

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics, so don't say that statistics don't lie. Take a statistics class. The whole point of statistics is to find a way to say what you want them to say. If you want to say they don't technically lie, fine, but they can obscure the reality of a situation easily.

I don't want to post stats of any hit. What is the point? The people that know it is an acceptable hit will already know, and there will always be people that find fault in any hit they don't initiate themselves. It has nothing to do with being afraid. The hit was made, TRC will deal with the consequences just like every hit we've ever made in the past. People post stats to justify hits, especially in wars where you add guilds to make up numbers so the defender's TNW is higher. There is no reason to justify this hit. It was made, end of story.
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Postby Knight of Barnabas » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:02 pm

Oh come on, we know there are several TRC members who are preoccupied with the math and statistics of everything, telling us TRC don't care about stats is bs :)

A "we couldn't be bothered" or "i accidentally overwrote the clipboard" would of done fine =P


"The whole point of statistics is to find a way to say what you want them to say."

Way to go and demonstrate your honesty :)

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Postby Geothe » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:24 pm

heathens TNW > TRC TNW

heathens turns > TRC turns


which is more than TNE can say on both accounts. lol
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Postby _Nagash_ » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:56 pm

JANIEC!
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Postby General Andy Icarn » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:29 pm

heathens TNW > TRC TNW


was it? then post it. it would have saved a lot of hastle huh?

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics, so don't say that statistics don't lie. Take a statistics class. The whole point of statistics is to find a way to say what you want them to say. If you want to say they don't technically lie, fine, but they can obscure the reality of a situation easily.


My mother was a birth and death statistician for decades. There's things people die from and things they don't, and it was far beyond her power to influence the doctors that made those certificates. It's not like we're making pie charts and sh*t, and of anything that can be spun, stats are one of the most bland and unspun things you can do with information.

If a hit is halfway decent then the stats will bear that out no matter how people try to spin things in the thread. Whatever you think can be spun by using stats it'll be spun far worse if nobody has stats cause everyone sees things from their side. At least with stats you have something concrete. The only point to not posting them is an unwillingness to deal with a hit you make.

I don't want to post stats of any hit. What is the point? The people that know it is an acceptable hit will already know, and there will always be people that find fault in any hit they don't initiate themselves. It has nothing to do with being afraid.


Because everyone is, multiple times each day, grabbing the stats of all guild and guild combos so they will know the stats each time a guild goes to war? No. Not even I know what the prestats were on this war and I'm as much of a stat follower as anyone who isn't a GM. Nobody but perhaps a few GM's or avid worth followers will know stats if you don't post them. Neutral parties won't know. Those who've been hit won't know. Half the people in your own guild won't know.

The benefits to you for not posting are all about your being afraid. Afraid heathens will group against you, afraid those who're hit will realize they weren't given a chance, afraid you'll lose members. Be gutsy, take responsibility for what you do.

So why don't you just go fall back on the one excuses everyone always falls back on who has no other reason...

A "we couldn't be bothered" or "i accidentally overwrote the clipboard" would of done fine =P


...oh wait someone already did. At least KoB had the guts to show how much of a joke that is. :twisted:

||not trying to say it was a bad hit, or 'poorly chosen' war at all, just arguing for the sake of it.


yeah me too on that first part, Alex seems to want to come back and talk about this hit, I'm just making a general statement that posting stats is important and there's no good reason not to.

As for this particular hit Khal even said he was short on options and would have prefered something else, so people are if anything more likely to be ok with whatever the stats are. Post em.

People post stats to justify hits, especially in wars where you add guilds to make up numbers so the defender's TNW is higher.


people post stats for a buncha reasons...
- they want to set a starting position so that as the war progresses people can see generally how things are going
- they want to show they tried to start a war that will be a good fight
- they want to show other heathens they made a hit that isn't crap, so heathens know they'll be given half a chance themselves in future wars with said guild
etc etc etc

By saying people post stats to justify hits you're talking like you're never going to make a hit you don't feel you need to justify. Stop feeling you have to justify everything, just do it and then OWN IT.

There is no reason to justify this hit. It was made, end of story.


Then own it. TNE made a crap hit on you guys but at least they posted it, had the guts to say yeah we made a crap hit and we'll live with it. It may mean I wouldn't join TNE because they showed they'll do stuff like that but I can still respect the fact that they owned their conduct, that they didn't try to mask it by skipping the stats. How many people bitched in that thread when a crap hit was made and the stats were posted? Almost nobody, cause they knew what to expect.

ps. If I use examples of "bad" hits it's meant to point out that even in the "worst" situation posting stats is better than not doing so, as I don't think people generally have as much problem with posting stats in "better" hits anyway and I don't really need to argue that.

Again with the talk about Castaway. I swear if I hear about that game one more time I'm going to kick a puppy!;-p


hell yeah, talk about a complete ripoff, that they changed Outcast's name into something resembling a reality TV show has never ceased to rub me the wrong way. Sounds like the title of a gay porn vid. :evil:
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Postby Gerien » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:06 pm

Where's the damn jello?!!!
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Postby Odominus » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:31 pm

Andy Andy Andy...

let it go. Khal knows what type of hit this was.

Look at the title he gave this thread.

"No Options"

Which I believe equates to "no option but to do a less than honorable hit." I mean, "No option but to do an honorable hit" doesn't scan.

Nesbah?

They have their reasons Im sure. Just remember them the next time they float in front of your cross hairs.

And Khal wtf you hit me three times after peace was finally posted in TB? My 4-5 cs's piss ye off that bad hehee.
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Postby DKII » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:51 pm

There's no stats for TNE hitting FEL either, why don't you post similar complaints over there?
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Postby Knight of Barnabas » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:46 pm

having the same argument in multiple threads would give people biggles flashbacks =P
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Postby Hatama » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:28 am

oops girls alt....
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Postby owly » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:30 am

Knight of Barnabas wrote:having the same argument in multiple threads would give people biggles flashbacks =P


The only time i have biggles flash backs is when i watch what's going down the toilet as it is being flushed...
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Postby Alex_Greystone » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:35 am

Andy, I don't know what death has to do with statistics, but if you don't realize that statistics can and are manipulated, you are being naive. Your mother being a statistician has nothing to do with your knowledge either. My father was a diesel mechanic but I have no clue how to take apart a bulldozer and put it back together.

This hit by TRC was decent. It wasn't great, and it wasn't a reaching hit, but it was acceptable by the numbers. TRC doesn't feel the need to post the stats. I don't care how it came across and I'm sure Khal doesn't either. TRC has made many strikes in the past that have good numbers and people bitch. If they're going to bitch regardless, why bother posting the numbers? It has gotten to the point where TRC doesn't care enough to post them. We find an acceptable hit and make it, and we live with the results. Fear has zero to do with it. Since when has posted stats ever stopped a heathen guild from attacking TRC if they feel a war is unfair? If they want to attack and think they should, they will and no amount of numbers will stop them.

It has nothing to do with responsibility either. Where in this thread has any TRC member not taken responsibility for this hit? We initiated the hit, of course we take responsibility for it. If there are heathen guilds that don't like it, do something about it. Did you read where I said "There is no reason to justify this hit. It was made, end of story"? How is that anything but taking responsibility for the hit?

I did not come back to this thread and talk about the hit. I responded to your initial post of numbers that were taken after the first strike. The SOLE reason to post those numbers is to make it seem like this was a bad hit. There is no other reason. Everyone playing this game knows that if you make an effective first strike, which TRC did, the numbers will look horrible. That's why you take stats from before the attack. You didn't. You posted the numbers with an agenda and I called you on it. You were the first person in this thread to post anything in this thread that was a complaint about the hit, and it was a baseless accusation that you don't have the numbers to back up, and you're upset because no one will come to your rescue with stats to back up your thinking that this was a bad hit.

Geothe and DKII make excellent points. If not posting stats upsets you so much, why aren't you in the TNE thread complaining? The only stats there are after the first strike. It's because you have an agenda here because your guild got destroyed. Welcome to a war game, it happens sometimes. If you don't like it, rebuild and do something about it. The tools are right there in the game waiting for you.
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Postby Quick Draw » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:34 am

owly wrote:The only time i have biggles flash backs is when i watch what's going down the toilet as it is being flushed...


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Postby Torkano » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:41 pm

owly wrote:
Knight of Barnabas wrote:having the same argument in multiple threads would give people biggles flashbacks =P


The only time i have biggles flash backs is when i watch what's going down the toilet as it is being flushed...


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Postby General Andy Icarn » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:34 pm

If they're going to bitch regardless, why bother posting the numbers?


cause that's not the point of posting them :roll:

We find an acceptable hit and make it, and we live with the results.


Accept you don't cause nobody even knows what in the world sort of hit it was.

Since when has posted stats ever stopped a heathen guild from attacking TRC if they feel a war is unfair?


posting stats points out that the war was something that could have been won. It's something that greatly effects who someone wants to attack later on. If you know you have the possibility of two targets and you know one of them will screw you over any chance they get and the other will give you a war you might win you'll invade the one who'll screw you over if they get the chance. How obvious is that???? Don't waste my time with this sort of simple crap.


It has nothing to do with responsibility either. Where in this thread has any TRC member not taken responsibility for this hit?


Through the whole thread where you never explain anywhere close to what sort of fight you started, and only those with shattered kingdoms are left to guess how strong you were when you started.

I responded to your initial post of numbers that were taken after the first strike. The SOLE reason to post those numbers is to make it seem like this was a bad hit. There is no other reason. Everyone playing this game knows that if you make an effective first strike, which TRC did, the numbers will look horrible.


If everyone playing the game knows that an effective first strike will make numbers look "horrible" then why would I have no other reason to post stats than to make you look bad??? rofl

I've enumerated countless logical reasons already, all of which you've failed to refute, so until you do just don't bother to spew this crap.

You didn't. You posted the numbers with an agenda and I called you on it.


yes your logic is clearly undeniable. lmfao :twisted:

You were the first person in this thread to post anything in this thread that was a complaint about the hit, and it was a baseless accusation that you don't have the numbers to back up, and you're upset because no one will come to your rescue with stats to back up your thinking that this was a bad hit.


Jesus did I even say it was a bad hit? Why don't you do a little research. And if you posted your stats in the first place or PM'ed me them because that's too much effort for you to post em yourself, then I wouldn't have to post what I have. You're the ones who know everything, you picked the time to war, you post the stats or I will post what I can.

Stop bitching about my stats being unfair if you can't even come up with your own. Stop saying that I am complaining about your stats when I posted nothing in the post accept for the stats, why don't you take a look again as it didn't seem to seep in the first time.

Geothe and DKII make excellent points. If not posting stats upsets you so much, why aren't you in the TNE thread complaining?


Yes they do and I already answered Geothe. But in regards to DKII (thought I'd already responded to that, I think I got a phone call and exited my post *shrug*)...
1. It's not my war thread so I don't neccessarily follow it religiously, if at all.
2. Skimming it I thought they'd posted the stats on post 2, looking back again now I don't know what KoB's doing with those numbers.
3. They are faithmates atm and you aren't, it's DKII's place or Grunt's place or your place to get on their cases. How often do you complain about your faithmates? Or do you just not post "go Fervent" or whatever cause you don't like what they did?
4. The stats in their case are more obvious, they don't have unlisted guilds in their war.
5. If I'd seen at that time that they hadn't posted stats I probably would have said "post your stats", but as it wasn't my war I probably wouldn't have gone into great detail or bothered to post them myself.

It's because you have an agenda here because your guild got destroyed.


Damn you got me again with that brain of yours :action1:

Welcome to a war game, it happens sometimes. If you don't like it, rebuild and do something about it. The tools are right there in the game waiting for you.


If I cared about position would I have returned to the game in order to save my faith from a gutless downhitter named pesh whose kingdoms were up to 15x the size of my top doms? Wouldn't I have joined mostly large guilds back when that made for dominant play here? Wouldn't I have jumped on Arioch when he was under attack by multiple people? Wouldn't I have gone to war when a faithmate came to forum and declared we should faithwar the Letos once we were getting the upper hand? Would I have spent ages in the past clearing out all Letos in a wide enough range that nobody could get a restart through without my killing it when all other ways to fight were exhausted? I could go on but I have something to do that I should have left to do rather than post :twisted:
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Postby Quick Draw » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 pm

Andy, Bro. You lost your audience somewhere around page three of that last post. :wink:
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Postby DKII » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:30 pm

If you think the war is fair then you don't need any stats. If you don't think the war is fair then no stats are going to convince you otherwise. Their only purpose is to try and sway outside observers who aren't experiencing the war directly, and even then it's always just a matter of the faithmates of the people who are hit will always complain while the faithmates of the attackers will come in and say good job. Quit whining about something that doesn't even matter--even in a "fair" hit 90% of the time a good first strike will end the war immediately anyway.
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Postby Ash » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:56 pm

We didn't paste stats, draw pictures, send out greetingcards, visit your parents etc etc because we were busy pounding kingdoms. We are immensely sorry if we hurt someones feelings by not making the proper arrangements.

Next time we will of course take heed and give the proper twoweek notice on a war we're planning so you can prepare and show graphs of the stats from the announcement to the actual hit.
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Postby General Andy Icarn » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:57 pm

Andy, Bro. You lost your audience somewhere around page three of that last post.


:D but it's not about an audience :D
(and otherwise I'd be doing HW)

If you think the war is fair then you don't need any stats. If you don't think the war is fair then no stats are going to convince you otherwise.


speak for yourself :D

Their only purpose is to try and sway outside observers who aren't experiencing the war directly


If you believe this then why don't you post your stats so you are the first to sway opinions? Otherwise either a heathen will post them and start to sway opinions or else nobody will post them leaving things in doubt. The only reason to leave them in doubt given your logic is if you know stats will show things you'd rather leave unseen. And that's not owning it.

even then it's always just a matter of the faithmates of the people who are hit will always complain while the faithmates of the attackers will come in and say good job


Sorry if I'm writing about other subgames too much but as only a guildmember I don't have much control over actions here and can only try to make an example in games where I control my destiny, such as Solo or Turmoil. I don't think you'll find me with any enemies in either of those places or anyone who's said I've given them bad wars that they never had a chance in.

These are heathens who you say are always going to complain or dislike you, and I haven't had any problem with them since coming back, and it hasn't negatively effected my rankings either. If anything it's helped me stay alive when I was the only Barnie surrounded by Letos early in the age. Now the Barnies have come back in Turmoil and we actually atm have 24 top 50 doms. This happened not just via smart play and skill but because the heathens knew some of us would give them good wars.

There are people who're always going to bitch, but there's fewer of them than you think.

Quit whining about something that doesn't even matter--even in a "fair" hit 90% of the time a good first strike will end the war immediately anyway.


Then maybe you need to pick a war that doesn't end it immediately.
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