ACORN

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ACORN

Postby Grunt » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:52 pm

ok I tryed to bite my tongue but couldn't
the corruption is being exposed left and right now
at least 3 times their offices gave advise how to evade tax laws and use government money to run an underage Salvadorian whorehouse
so the tapes came out and the state attorney for Baltimore threatened to sue the film crew for exposing the criminal activity
ACORN says they are sueing FOX for supporting the exposure of corruption
Remember when exposing fraud using tax dollars was a good thing
well the Senate has now voted 83-7 to cut off fed funds for ACORN
these guys voted to keep funding them

•Dick Durbin (D-IL)
•Roland Burris (D-IL)
•Robert Casey (D-PA)
•Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY)
•Patrick Leahy (D-VT)
•Bernie Sanders (I-VT)
•Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI)
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Re: ACORN

Postby Atla » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:11 pm

Hey...wait a second? Didn't that Obama feller have something to do with ACORN?

-innocent look-
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Re: ACORN

Postby owly » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:09 pm

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Re: ACORN

Postby zenpig » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:25 pm

apparently, ACORN has been operating illegally/without a license in Maryland...pretty sad that the attorney general thought about going after O'Keefe. What's even sadder is that most of the U.S. has absolutely no idea what you are talking about, Grunt.

ACORN is rising to the level of a criminal enterprise possibly involved in racketeering....I recall very recently CEO's being lambasted for much less except that they apparently were/are on the wrong side of populist ideology. Time to use RICO on ACORN....shit, who am I kidding? another pass for another supporter.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Tubs » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:13 pm

zenpig wrote:apparently, ACORN has been operating illegally/without a license in Maryland...pretty sad that the attorney general thought about going after O'Keefe. What's even sadder is that most of the U.S. has absolutely no idea what you are talking about, Grunt.


Those few who don't care for the conservative talk show circus...
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Re: ACORN

Postby Isildur » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:44 pm

Tubs wrote:
zenpig wrote:apparently, ACORN has been operating illegally/without a license in Maryland...pretty sad that the attorney general thought about going after O'Keefe. What's even sadder is that most of the U.S. has absolutely no idea what you are talking about, Grunt.


Those few who don't care for the conservative talk show circus...


Glad to see that for Tubs and others tax fraud, sexual abuse of children, and other actions taken by a taxpayer funded organization is best left to a "conservative talk show circus" to expose.

Nice.
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Re: ACORN

Postby zenpig » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:16 pm

Tubs wrote:
zenpig wrote:apparently, ACORN has been operating illegally/without a license in Maryland...pretty sad that the attorney general thought about going after O'Keefe. What's even sadder is that most of the U.S. has absolutely no idea what you are talking about, Grunt.


Those few who don't care for the conservative talk show circus...


thanks for supporting my point.....there are those who really thought that going after the head of AIG was some righteous maneuver but the corruption of an organization which receives federal funds in Acorn is just of interest to conservatives. I already knew what Obama meant by bi-partisan but it plays out to expectations over and over.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Tubs » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:04 am

I can't fathom how you could compare the events that led to the collapse of AIG with anything Acorn has done, alleged or for real. Acorn received just $16 mill in federal tax dollars since 1997 whereas the AIG bailout alone cost taxpayers over $100 billion (that would pay for over 600 Acorns each over a 10 year period - god forbid).

I don't support organizations like Acorn either, but get some perspective.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Isildur » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:04 pm

Tubs wrote:I can't fathom how you could compare the events that led to the collapse of AIG with anything Acorn has done, alleged or for real. Acorn received just $16 mill in federal tax dollars since 1997 whereas the AIG bailout alone cost taxpayers over $100 billion (that would pay for over 600 Acorns each over a 10 year period - god forbid).

I don't support organizations like Acorn either, but get some perspective.


Given that ACORN probably contributed more than any other single organization/entity (with the possible exception of "the government" as a whole) to the housing collapse, then I agree -- the collapse of AIG at a mere $100 billion is peanuts compared to what really should be laid at this organization's feet.

ACORN agitated for more people who really had no business owning homes to get loans. ACORN with the support of legal counsel like Obama pushed for expansion of the Community Reinvestment Act, and worked to strongarm banks into creating the whole concept of a subprime mortgage.

AIG, Schma-IG, lets talk several trillion bucks that ACORN shares at least some blame for. I'd rank them right up there with Frank, Dodd, Obama, Bush, and the Fannie/Freddie execs as the top co-conspirators to blame for that mess.

And regardless of your opinion on their culpability, they still receive millions in federal funding, they still are under indictment in multiple states for elections fraud, they still apparently had representatives engaged multiple times in criminal acts to help commit tax fraud and support underage sexual exploitation, they also in the latest video had representatives of the taxpayer supported "non-partisan" organization report about their upcoming lobbying efforts on behalf of healthcare reform -- which in itself is also tax fraud.

Yeah, thats just the fevered dreams of conservative talk show hosts.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Tubs » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:11 pm

Yeah, thats just the fevered dreams of conservative talk show hosts.


Yes yes yes yes yes! Wake up.

If they committed any of those crimes you allege then I hope the people responsible get put in prison. But to blame this organization for the collapse of our financial system is Conservative talk show absurdity at its best. I tend to listen more to financial people than political pundits when it comes to problems with the economy and how often the CRA comes up in discussions there is rather telling.

I understand why these talk show hosts want to hold onto their memes, but don't expect me to take it seriously.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Isildur » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:36 pm

Tubs wrote:Yes yes yes yes yes! Wake up.

...But to blame this organization for the collapse of our financial system is Conservative talk show absurdity at its best.


Wake up indeed, and smell the Congressional report referred to in this articlethat said they shared some blame.

Such rhetoric in the past has deflected scrutiny of Acorn tactics, such as street demonstrations and boycotts against banks to force lower credit standards for home loans, which a congressional report found contributed to the subprime loan mess. But now Acorn may be finally running off the rails


Funny but I don't think Limbaugh, Hannity, or Beck had anything to do with that report.

Yet for some reason, there's plenty of people out there who I can only assume are remaining deliberately ignorant of just what this organization has been involved in, since there's plenty of information out there for those willing to look for it.

You won't like this source, but the information there is worth reviewing and can be confirmed elsewhere:

Under CRA guidelines, any bank wishing to expand or to merge with another financial institution would be required to first demonstrate that it had complied with all CRA rules. Final approval for expansions or mergers could be stalled, or derailed entirely, if "community groups" like ACORN were to accuse a bank -- however frivolously or unjustly -- of having violated the mandates of CRA.

In the early 1990s ACORN, thus empowered by the CRA, insisted that banks demonstrate their commitment to minority lending by drastically lowering their standards on down-payments and underwriting, and by making loans even to borrowers -- especially nonwhite minorities -- with bad credit histories. If banks expressed reluctance to do so, ACORN intimidated them into compliance by threatening to sue them, to smear them in the media with negative-publicity campaigns (accusing them of racist and anti-immigrant lending practices), and to block any mergers which the banks might seek in the future. These threats were often accompanied by rowdy crowds of ACORN demonstrators swarming bank offices and lobbies.

In response, terrified bank executives routinely agreed to appoint ACORN as their official "advisor" on CRA compliance, thereby giving the group carte blanche to channel loans to its own hand-picked recipients. One ACORN leader boasted that her organization had become proficient at dragging banks "kicking and screaming" into high-risk loans for low-income people with shady credit histories. By September 1992, ACORN was issuing fact sheets broadcasting its success in having forced lenders to lower their credit standards on behalf of minorities. Ultimately, ACORN proudly claimed "credit for saving the CRA."

The New York Post explains what happened next:

"As ACORN ran its campaigns against local banks, it quickly hit a roadblock. Banks would tell ACORN they could afford to reduce their credit standards by only a little -- since Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the federal mortgage giants, refused to buy up those risky loans for sale on the 'secondary market.'

"That is, the CRA wasn't enough. Unless Fannie and Freddie were willing to relax their credit standards as well, local banks would never make home loans to customers with bad credit histories or with too little money for a down-payment.

"So ACORN's Democratic friends in Congress moved to force Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to dispense with normal credit standards. Throughout the early '90s, they imposed ever-increasing subprime-lending quotas on Fannie and Freddie….

"ACORN's intimidation tactics, and its alliance with Democrats in Congress, triumphed. Despite their 1994 takeover of Congress, Republicans' attempts to pare back the CRA were stymied….

"ACORN had come to Congress not only to protect the CRA from GOP [Republican] reforms but also to expand the reach of quota-based lending to Fannie, Freddie and beyond….

"[In June 1995] the Clinton administration announced a comprehensive strategy to push homeownership in America to new heights -- regardless of the compromise in credit standards that the task would require. Fannie and Freddie were assigned massive subprime lending quotas, which would rise to about half of their total business by the end of the decade."

This strengthening of the CRA's loan mandates, coupled with the authority that ACORN and other "community organizations" were given to intervene at yearly bank reviews, placed ACORN and likeminded activist groups in a position of great influence. Banks, eager to receive good reports from these groups (in order to avoid having their merger plans blocked or their lending practices challenged by the Justice Department), funneled immense sums of money to ACORN, et al. As the New York Post puts it, "intimidation tactics, public charges of racism and threats to use CRA to block business expansion have enabled ACORN to extract hundreds of millions of dollars in loans and contributions from America's financial institutions."

One financial-industry consultant explains, with resignation: "The banks know they are being held up, but they are not going to fight over this. They look at it as a cost of doing business."

Robert L. Woodson, president of the National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise (a community-action group that calls for individual responsibility rather than reliance on government handouts), puts it this way: "ACORN knows that corporate America has no starch in their shorts and, therefore, what they try to do is buy peace from groups that agitate against them. The same corporations that pay ransom to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton pay ransom to ACORN."


Here's another commentary you probably wouldn't want to read, but the logic and underlying evidence is sound.

As ACORN ran its campaigns against local banks, it quickly hit a roadblock. Banks would tell ACORN they could afford to reduce their credit standards by only a little—since Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the federal mortgage giants, refused to buy up those risky loans for sale on the "secondary market."

That is, the CRA wasn't enough. Unless Fannie and Freddie were willing to relax their credit standards as well, local banks would never make home loans to customers with bad credit histories or with too little money for a downpayment.

So ACORN's Democratic friends in Congress moved to force Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to dispense with normal credit standards. Throughout the early '90s, they imposed ever-increasing subprime-lending quotas on Fannie and Freddie.


Unfortunately, stupidly pushing wrongheaded political ideas aren't illegal. But these guys are more to blame for the mortgage meltdown than any AIG exec.

Here's one more from RealClearPolitics that also talks about their involvement.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Tubs » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:16 pm

You can't debunk my point that Acorn is a meme by linking me to articles by political pundits!

I rather like the thought experiment Barry Ritholtz posted on his blog about what the financial collapse would look like if the CRA was really to blame. Here's a link to it. He's a financial commentator and blames a lot of the economic mess on both Democratic and Republican administrations, but not the CRA.

Acorn and the CRA is a great example of cognitive dissonance. You believe that deregulation and pure capitalism is good and banks won't do bad things. However, the evidence of what caused our current economic situation does not support this claim, so you create a meme that supports your belief. It wasn't deregulation to blame, or the banks, it can't be, Libertarianism is the one true path! It must be socialist organizations like Acorn that caused the financial collapse!

There's plenty of blame to go around for this mess. Pinning it on Acorn is conservative talk show dreamland.

[edit]Fixed link[/edit]
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Re: ACORN

Postby Reylan Talonspyre » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:55 pm

I am so proud of Illinois right now.

•Dick Durbin (D-IL)
•Roland Burris (D-IL)


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Re: ACORN

Postby Isildur » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:04 pm

Tubs wrote:You can't debunk my point that Acorn is a meme by linking me to articles by political pundits!


No, but I can prove my point that you appear to be doing your best to remain deliberately ignorant of the evidence that those pundits cite, and have done nothing to debunk the logic that supports their use of the evidence to show that the CRA and ACORN -- along with many others -- share in the blame (solely to blame, no way. As much to blame as any other single entity? I believe so).

I don't rely just on the pundits, after all -- I much prefer the work of award winning economists when studying the economy.

Ignoring ACORN's involvement shows that someone is existing in a fantasyland, but at least in this case, its not the conservative talk show hosts.
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Re: ACORN

Postby zenpig » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:22 pm

Tubs wrote:I can't fathom how you could compare the events that led to the collapse of AIG with anything Acorn has done, alleged or for real. Acorn received just $16 mill in federal tax dollars since 1997 whereas the AIG bailout alone cost taxpayers over $100 billion (that would pay for over 600 Acorns each over a 10 year period - god forbid).

I don't support organizations like Acorn either, but get some perspective.


If you'd notice I didn't say anything about a dollar amount....a federally funded organization which takes an active part in giving tax advice to those wishing to start an underage brothel isn't something I'm placing a value on. It's morally bankrupt and I'd make what I hope is an obvious judgment that it is much more repugnant than those who received bonuses as part of their work at AIG...something which actually got reported on in the MSM to the point of ridiculousness.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Maverick » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:05 am

at least 3 times their offices gave advise how to evade tax laws


From the tapes I saw, they actually were giving tax advice on how to make prostitution "legal" by paying taxes.

They advise the prostitute that she should say she is a "performing artist" (Pretty sure that was the term not 100%) and how to pay taxes so that the govt wouldnt get her for tax invasion.

Personally, I think that prostitution should be legal so Im not against that.

As for the 13 year old prostitution, well theres just really no way you can defend it. But then again who even knows what the purpose of all this was.

What agenda does 13 year old prostitutes promote?

I really have no idea, this just seems to be dumb ass organization that should be ended.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Tubs » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:10 pm

Isildur wrote:No, but I can prove my point that you appear to be doing your best to remain deliberately ignorant of the evidence that those pundits cite, and have done nothing to debunk the logic that supports their use of the evidence to show that the CRA and ACORN -- along with many others -- share in the blame (solely to blame, no way. As much to blame as any other single entity? I believe so).


There's two things here - that acorn might be a criminal organization (I really haven't being paying much attention to the news about it until now), and my point here that the conservative media has been over-exaggerating its part in the subprime collapse because it suits what they believe better. Specifically, it makes more sense to them to pin the collapse on a 'government run banking program' instead of deregulation, which is the heart of Conservative ideology.

I personally couldn't care less what happens to acorn. I do care about what people believe about the reasons for the economy being the way it is and preventing it from happening again. When that debate is presented in a dishonest way, I wonder if people are learning anything worth a damn from this.

The CRA was absolutely not to blame for the economic mess in any significant way at all. I'm not saying this to support the Democrats, because I believe policies implemented by Clinton and a Democratic congress shoulder a lot of the blame, as well as Bush era economics, and my mind is not decided about Obama yet. There's also party neutral aspects such as the power of lobbyists in Washington, and how intertwined the banks are with government that is at the heart of the problem. The CRA, however, is a huge red herring.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Grunt » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:38 pm

yea Mav advising them to claim the underage sex slaves as dependents is just tax advise
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Re: ACORN

Postby Maverick » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:26 pm

Grunt,

Im confused by that statement.

There were 2 separate conversations.

A) Prostitute is asking tax advice. They advise her that if she wants it to be "legal" she has to pay taxes. This is along the lines of how Al Capone was arrested, they got him for tax evasion. I have no problem with this because I dont think prostitution should be illegal. Furthermore, I think it would be a benefit to the US if more people paid taxes (drug dealers, pimps, etc) so that there arent people who are making money, getting free services from the govt and not having to pay taxes.

B) Advice on how to run a 13 year old prostitute ring. This there is no way to defend it.

Situation A, I really dont have a problem with it. At the end of the day they were getting the US govt more money by having a prostitute pay taxes. Id rather the prostitute pay taxes then be sent to jail and cost me more money.

Situation B, just no clue what they were thinking.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Isildur » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:55 pm

Tubs wrote:There's two things here - that acorn might be a criminal organization (I really haven't being paying much attention to the news about it until now), and my point here that the conservative media has been over-exaggerating its part in the subprime collapse because it suits what they believe better. Specifically, it makes more sense to them to pin the collapse on a 'government run banking program' instead of deregulation, which is the heart of Conservative ideology.


I don't really disagree with this. Conservative organizations do have a vested interest in over-exaggerating the negative impact of regulation and government interference in the free market.

Of course, the contrary is true as well -- liberal organizations have an equally vested interest in downplaying and such possible negative impact, and as such Obama was able to ride into office to save us from the evils of too much government (downplayed) with a solution that requires more government.

In fact, I'd say that the counter-argument has been overexaggerated to a much larger extent and that the contributions of ACORN and government regulation have been downplayed and are not taking their fair share of the blame.

I do care about what people believe about the reasons for the economy being the way it is and preventing it from happening again. When that debate is presented in a dishonest way, I wonder if people are learning anything worth a damn from this.


Again, I'll agree with this too. The debate has been largely presented in a dishonest way as a failure of the free market, when there was plenty of blame to go around (as I've stated already) and the scale of the disaster if nothing else was exaggerated by government interference.

Absolving ACORN and the CRA of any wrongdoing is exactly what I would characterize as presenting the debate in a dishonest way, especially when their involvement -- while you can debate the amount of blame --
has been clearly identified as a factor by economists and others who have reviewed the situation.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Tubs » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:37 pm

You didn't negate my sentence properly. Conservative commentators are not over-exaggerating the negative impact of regulation, they are ignoring the impact that the deregulation of the banking sector has had over the last 14 years and grasping for dirt trying to pin it on the CRA.

The debate has been largely presented in a dishonest way as a failure of the free market


And finally something we can both agree on. The current situation is a completely absurd form of socialism where we have the largest players in our supposedly free market system being supported by governments, and everyone else gets capitalism.
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Re: ACORN

Postby bigSparky » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:56 pm

Mav, I understand and agree with the philosophical aspect of your post. But in this case you can't separate them and discuss it with any validity. The whole premise the gal went in with was one of illegally importing underage girls to work in a brothel. She was posing as a wanna be madame. One of the things she was looking for was if ACORN could set her up with government funding to start her business of pimping out underage girls illegally imported from third world countries, most specifically South American countries. Some, but to be fair not all, of the agencies tried to help her in that endeavor. The tax advice issue was only part of it. One person even advised her to NOT educate her "employees" as she had planned, because they would soon realize what she was doing to them was wrong.

She is 21. If it had been about her and her alone, or other adults, then what you say would be relevant. I'm not sure I really want our government involved in giving seed money for brothels, but I'm certainly not opposed to the tax advice given as long as we are talking about consenting adults.

What those Acorn outposts that went along with it did was wrong. There is no way to paint a good light on it, because you can't separate the issues in this case.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Isildur » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:18 pm

Tubs wrote:You didn't negate my sentence properly. Conservative commentators are not over-exaggerating the negative impact of regulation, they are ignoring the impact that the deregulation of the banking sector has had over the last 14 years and grasping for dirt trying to pin it on the CRA.


Conservative commentators ARE over-exaggerating the negative impact of regulation and rightfully pointing out where de-regulation has improved the situation, and liberal commentators ARE over-exaggerating the positive impact of regulation and largely ignoring the benefits the situation has experienced of de-reg.

The current situation is a completely absurd form of socialism where we have the largest players in our supposedly free market system being supported by governments, and everyone else gets capitalism.
[/quote][/quote]

Yup, less regulation = free markets = not near as bad a crash. More businesses fail before the government props them up to the point that they are deemed too big to fail.
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Re: ACORN

Postby Taldric » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:41 am

I am entirely too drunk to make any sense whatsoever of this. Isi, please interpret this into drunken layman terms because I'm too wasted to decipher it otherwise. Damn those younger sisters who are suddenly of age to purchase alcohol! :twisted: :roll:
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Re: ACORN

Postby Reylan Talonspyre » Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:58 am

Problem with ACORN is that is also has some great, legitimate assistance agencies under its belt. I know one of its roles in community problems is to help people out of bad or unreasonable mortgages. I think the mass influx of tax payer money (thank you Obama) as well as some of its highly politicized attacks against fellow Americans is coming back to haunt them.

Too bad. They could have been a great organization. End them.

Next on the list: AARP: Why can't I get some free coffee at McDonalds?
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