Guns vs No Guns

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Guns vs No Guns

Postby Gerien » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:18 pm

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Postby Atla » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:57 pm

You want to show me pictures of children who've been shot? I'll tell you tales of unarmed women who've been brutalized in fashions you don't want to think about. Don't try the sob story crap with me. I know more than most about the gun culture, gun laws, and self-defense. I know what victims of evil people with evil intent look like. I've dated them before. I've taught them how to fight. I've taught them how to shoot. I've made sure they'll never give in again.

You choose to live unarmed in an increasingly dangerous world. You choose to live a blind and unrealistic life. You choose to put yourself and your family at risk. You choose to be a coward and not learn to defend yourself. You choose to not be a man.

If you don't want to carry a gun, or if you don't believe in guns - than go your damned way and leave those of us who do in peace.

You gutless, ignorant, pathetic excuses disgust me.

You turn on the news, the radio, or look at the newspaper and wonder whats wrong with the world today. Yet you don't do a thing to insure you and yours are safe. You don't plan ahead and try to learn anything, you just think the world will pass you by and it could never happen to you, always someone else.

Except for a lot of folks out there - you are someone else.

You want to live that way, fine. Be a fool.

But don't dare try and force that upon me and mine. I won't take to kindly to it, and I can assure you that you won't enjoy my reaction.
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Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace! -MajGen Rupertus, USMC.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Gerien » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:49 pm

Actually I'm trained in multiple methods of self defense that DON'T run the risk of some attacker taking a weapon away from me. I believe in defending myself, I just don't believe in doing it in such a way that more often than not guarantees the loss of life. Yes, some people are scum. No,m I don't have the right to decide whether or not they live or die.

you know nothing about me save what you choose to interpret form the posts of my online alt. Don't dare fucking call me anything less than a man. I stand up for and behind my beliefs. They include taking care of myself and my family. They just don't include guns.

Frankly, Atla, I have never said you make me sick, though you sometimes do, because that has no bearing on any argument/discussion we might have. Keep it civil and intelligent rather than emotional and insulting or take it back to your trailer park.

[edit]1. I've NEVER tried to FORCE my opinions on anyone, just put them out there.
2. That last line was uncalled for and goes against what I was saying earlier. I withdraw it but leave it here to be honest and forthright.[/edit]
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Atla » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:39 pm

Gerien.

Statistics show time and time again that you are more likely to not be hurt if you resist any form of aggression with a firearm.

It's simple logic. Resisting with your hands puts you in closer proximity to an attacker. A knife is slightly farther away. But a gun gives you distance, and distance is what saves lives.

An attacker can use all sorts of things to hurt you, conversely you can use all sorts to hurt the attacker - I like to make a girl dump her purse out and go over what she has and how she can use it. But an attacker can use his hands, a knife(especially Hispanic gangs), clubs, firearms, etc, etc, etc. And it might not just be one attacker, a lot of times there are multiple assailants.
The point is, only a gun puts you on equal or higher ground. It's not physics we're calculating here.

Let's say someone is coming at you with a knife.

I know a fair amount of dirty bar fighting tricks, I don't mess with the fancy jump in the air and kick them in the face stuff. What I teach people is how to rip ears off, crush windpipes, gouge out eyeballs, break noses, ruin the family jewels etc. Not for the faint of heart stuff. I also carry an Applegate-Fairbairn fighting knife with me - always. Church, work, courthouse, it don't matter. Mainly cause I'm a country boy, and no self-respecting country boy would be caught dead without his pocket knife. But I know some about knife fighting as well.

Even with that fancy knowledge I've picked up, I wouldn't want to go against a man with a knife unless I was carrying a gun. And if I wouldn't want to, with my big head of dirty tricks and all, why would little Miss Susie on the way home from work tangle with him?

And I ain't no little muffin neither.

Or let's say theres two of them unarmed coming at me with intent to do some hurtin'. I would be much better off with just drawing a pistol than squaring off with my fists clenched.

I hear the same whiny statement over and over, the risk of an attacker taking a weapon away from me. Thats a typical cry-baby loser excuse.

Don't get me wrong, it happens. But the chances are slim. Especially if you have spent the time learning your weapon, practicing with your weapon, taking self-defense classes with your weapon, and having mentally prepared yourself for a possible confrontation.

A gun does not make you a Billy Bad Ass. Just because you are carrying doesn't make you invincible. You have to learn, you have to train, you have to put the time in to be worth a hoot with a gun. Most folks don't want to do that.

Most COPS don't even want to do that.

You don't think you've the right to decide whether a Goblin has the right to live or die?

84% of people shot with a handgun survive. I'd say thats pretty good odds in favor of you not killing anyone.

And when someone is trying to hurt you or your family, you shouldn't be to concerned over that person safety in the first place.

What all this comes down to is that a handgun is the BEST form of protection out there. There is nothing that gives you a better chance of survival than a firearm. It's all about percentages, having a gun doesn't make you 100% safe. Just like not smoking doesn't mean you ain't gonna get cancer one day. But by not smoking, you increase your chances of living a longer and happier life. The same applies to guns.

Even if you carry you might still get murdered in some back alleyway by some punk. But it gives you a better chance of coming out on top.

And being gay, you should carry a gun more so than a straight guy. Just like a black man should carry more than a white man. Or a woman over a man. Or city folks over country folks. Certain groups are more likely to be victims.

Tough cookie, but it's the way it goes.

Me? I don't have much of a chance. I'm a big feller, I'm white, I live in the country, but I've already had some close calls involving shooting people and fighting. I know it sounds stupid to say, but regardless of what the statistics say about you - you can be a victim.

Even big tough hardcore gun nut me.

I just know that if I go, I'm gonna go al'a Brad Pitt in 'The Mexican'.

"You wanna fight? FINE! But I'm warning you one of you is gonna leave here missing a pinky, an ear, or not be able to screw anymore!"
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Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace! -MajGen Rupertus, USMC.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Bogumil » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:56 pm

Atla wrote:What all this comes down to is that a handgun is the BEST form of protection out there. There is nothing that gives you a better chance of survival than a firearm. It's all about percentages, having a gun doesn't make you 100% safe. Just like not smoking doesn't mean you ain't gonna get cancer one day. But by not smoking, you increase your chances of living a longer and happier life. The same applies to guns.


I would amend that to "a handgun, with proper training regarding its use, coupled with some form of self defense class to help prepare an individual to deal with the stress of an assault is the BEST form of protection out there."

I'm sure you just assume proper training to be an implicit part of owning a firearm but it's astonishing how many people don't.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Atla » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:28 pm

Basically.

I think if you own a gun you've a responsibility to learn how to use it properly. Anything less and your a danger to yourself and others.

There are a lot of dumb people out there. Look at how many people believe in this Global Warming lunacy. ;p

The NRA has an 'Eddie Eagle' program that they wanted to bring into schools to educate youngsters on guns. What to do when you see one. etc, etc. The NRA was told it was 'propaganda' and banned from schools.

High Schools and Colleges used to have shooting teams, some lucky schools still do - mostly out west I reckon. Those educated people on how to safely own and operate firearms. But a lot of anti-gun bigots got them closed. Even HS and College ROTC programs do a good job, where the program is allowed.

But here's the kicker I reckon.

You can't just take one class and be safe and ready to take on the world. It's an ongoing process. You can't just buy a gun, take a Concealed Carry class, put it in your purse and think you are covered.

You really have to be interested. Often this interest only comes -after- you or someone you know gets hurt. Sadly it's the kick in the britches people need sometimes.

You've got to shoot often, you've got to take more than one class(Or at least a class that spans a couple of days), you've got to be into shooting and guns.

Most Cops only fire there guns once a year during their required course of fire. And sadly most cops have to do it repeatedly before they pass it. These are people who are going to come to your rescue and they suck with guns! There are stats out there that show criminals have a higher hit to miss ratio than cops do. (I believe it's 1:7 for bad guys and 1:9 for cops)

It goes to show that you have to be interested about guns and self-defense. Half measures don't do you no good.

The best single book to buy, ever, if you are interested at all in guns is 'Boston's Gun Bible' by Boston T. Party. They got it on sale on Amazon.com right now. It's everything you could possibly wonder about guns and written in a really easy style with some humor to it as well. So no one will be intimidated.
~Atla!
Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace! -MajGen Rupertus, USMC.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Grunt » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:37 pm

owning a firearm also gives you the responsibility to train ALL those in your house in its safe use
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby SolikNightwind » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:12 pm

Gerien wrote:Actually I'm trained in multiple methods of self defense that DON'T run the risk of some attacker taking a weapon away from me.

That's like saying "I eat foods that are free of trans fats" while they have 350% of your daily saturated fat and cholesterol.

I believe in defending myself, I just don't believe in doing it in such a way that more often than not guarantees the loss of life.

This statement was demonstrated false above. However, I'd like to pose this question.

Let's say you're faced with a situation where you are to defend your family from an assailant. You have two choices of defense: Option A and Option B. Both of these options have a % chance that someone dies and a % chance that you and/or your family are seriously hurt (to the point of torture and/or death) by the attacker. Let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that the options are as follows:

Option A: 25% someone dies, 20% you/family are seriously hurt
Option B: 10% someone dies, 75% you/family are seriously hurt

Or what about this?

A: 50% dies, 10% you/family hurt
B: 5% dies, 85% you/family hurt

Or insert your own numbers if you want to. When does it become okay? How much of you and your family's well-being are you willing to risk so that you don't hurt the person who is assaulting you / them?

I personally would choose this:

A: 100% someone dies, 25% me/my family hurt

over this:

B: 0% someone dies, 30% me/my family hurt

No, I don't have the right to decide whether or not they live or die.

Sure you do.

No, seriously. In most states, you most certainly do have the right. You explicitly have the right to kill someone who is attempting to commit serious harm to you and/or your family. This person has forfeited his or her right to life by taking steps against your right to life.

In fact, doing anything less than everything you can possibly do to protect yourself and your family from such aggressors is a gross dereliction of your own basic responsibilities. Doing so because of philosophy (or selfishness in the case of "I couldn't handle killing / seriously harming a human being") is reprehensible.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Nato » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:33 pm

Why do 84% of people shot with a handgun survive? And is that statistic of people shot during crimes?
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Bundesbank » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:38 pm

thankfully, i can go outside my house and not worry about getting shot or robbed on a consistent basis.

if i had to worry about it, i would probably want some nuclear weapons strapped to me at all times while i drove to school and work in a tank. preferably an IS-II, because those babies were BAD ASS. seriously. you take the 122mm gun off a russian cruiser and you just happen to toss it into a tank. that's sweet. you'd get lots of chicks that way.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Nato » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:40 pm

The only reason you don't have a gun is because you can't ride a bike and shoot at the same time.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Bundesbank » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:44 pm

Nato wrote:The only reason you don't have a gun is because you can't ride a bike and shoot at the same time.


correction: i spend all my money on bikes. and also i don't even know where i'd go to buy guns in the city i live in. quite frankly, i doubt there's even a store that sells guns.

i am willing to bet that i could shoot a gun while cycling. it would have to be a gun that doesn't have loads of kickback, but it could be done nonetheless. it just takes practice!
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Sturm » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:50 pm

Bundesbank wrote: preferably an IS-II, because those babies were BAD ASS. seriously. you take the 122mm gun off a russian cruiser and you just happen to toss it into a tank. that's sweet. you'd get lots of chicks that way.

Lets see if we can fit and fire a 381mm on a tank, and if so call it the M15 Bundes.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby zenpig » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:15 pm

another take on gun vs. no gun

http://www.zenpig.com/images/Einsatzgruppen-Killingfull.jpg

There is a price to pay in trusting a citizenry to carry firearms and one would have to be blind not to see some of those issues....though I think those issues are continually misrepresented by those who have an interest in further control. There is the pontential of a larger price to pay by not trusting the citizery to carry and the scene above is indicitive of that...I believe this is a scene of Nazi occupied Ukraine but Jews died defenseless to the anti-semetic onslaught that was part of the Nazi ideology which included removal of weapory from it's citizens. Anyone who thinks this will not or cannot happen again is beyond reason, assumes some sort of illogical progression of humanity, and is ignorant of history. It will occur repeatedly over the course of our existence. I, btw, am not calling you any of that, Gerien ;)

If we must drag the children into it by depicting brutality upon them this a picture illustrating the plight of Jewish children whose fathers(edit: and mothers) were forced to give up their firearms and are now in the midst of Nazi experimentation...tugs at the heart strings, I know.

http://www.zenpig.com/images/MedExp01.jpg
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Atla » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:22 pm

Because of the ammo handguns use....mainly.

It can get real complicated real quick trying to explain it, but rifle rounds can get hyper-velocity.

Which is sort of hard to explain. (Mainly cause I don't exactly understand it)

Basically think of it this way. There are two types of powder. Slow burning and fast burning.

A handgun barrel is generally less than five inches long, a rifle barrel is generally say 18 inches. It is the expanding gases cause by the gun powder burning that propel the bullet out of the barrel. If a barrel is short, you need a fast burning powder. Any powder that ain't burnt in the miliseconds it takes the round to exit the barrel, is wasted. If the barrel is longer, such as a rifle barrel you have more time between the primer being striked and the bullet leaving the barrel, so you can use slower burning powder and add more energy to the bullet.

Anyways, at a certain 'debatable' speed or velocity, the bullet causes 'extry-damage' upon entry. From what I understand, which is by no means a whole whole lot in regards to this, is that the kinetic force of the bullet is applied to human tissue.

Instead of the bullet entering the body and expanding and causing a hole, the bullet 'hits' the body at the same time it 'enters' the body. Think of the body as a pool of water, and you drop a pebble onto it and the ripples it creates. The pebble being a rifle round at a certain velocity. The ripples is essentially what happens to flesh.
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Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace! -MajGen Rupertus, USMC.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Atla » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:34 pm

Zenpig, you should read Unintended Consequences. The author, John Ross, goes over the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising but he also mentions a very interesting fact that no one really pays much mind to.

The main German rifle at the time was a K98 Mauser. (I have one that was made BEFORE WWII and definitely saw some use - Very nifty gun)

It has a distinctive safety on it that operates at three different positions. The first being 'fire', the second 'safe' to where you can open the bolt and load ammo but it won't fire, the third is 'locked' where the bolt will not open and the trigger will not fire.

In a lot of pictures the German Troops are seen herding Jews along with their rifles in either the Safe position or the Locked position. Meaning they had absolutely no fear of the Jews fighting back or resisting at any point. If they were worried at all, they'd have had their rifles in the Fire position. As it were, had the Jews resisted and charged the guards they would have not only had the element of surprise, but an additional second or two for the safeties to be changed to Fire.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Venus » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:39 am

Lets see if we can fit and fire a 381mm on a tank, and if so call it the M15 Bundes.




screw that, lets add a bicycling gun event to the olympics and send bundes to compete:P
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby zenpig » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:46 am

thanks for the heads up, Atla...I've heard of the book before but didn't realize it was not a strictly fictional tale after reading the reviews at Amazon. From the reviews and how it is interpretted by most of the readers I can appreciate what appears to be it's main theme of how over time we've come to accept laws and regulations placed upon us that are introduced gradually which if heaped upon us we would fully reject....and how it not only applies to guns but to all facets of life and government control of it. I think I'll have to put this on my must read list soon.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Thantos » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:52 am

Nato wrote:The only reason you don't have a gun is because you can't ride a bike and shoot at the same time.


Considering he can run a warchat and ride a bike at the same time, I bet he can.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Grunt » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:10 am

ride a bike to power running the war chat while shotting
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Sturm » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:53 am

Venus wrote:screw that, lets add a bicycling gun event to the olympics and send bundes to compete:P

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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Atla » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:59 am

Well, the main characters are fictional. But the events that happened are real.

It's really interesting to read about how things used to. You used to be able to order a Silencer, Machine Gun, and Anti-Tank rifle from a Sears Catalog. With ZERO government interference and restrictions. And it would be shipped to your door.

Which is how it was until about 60 years ago.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Technerd_9 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:27 am

Ohh look! Lets ban kitchen knives and cars!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/sep/0 ... elencarter

What we need is Knife locks!!! Chain the knife to your chopping block!!!

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/412773

Or we can wrap our cars in bubble wrap!!!
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Atla » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:46 pm

The U.K. is a dumb place.

From what I understand they recently banned 'cheap samaurai swords'.
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Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace! -MajGen Rupertus, USMC.
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Re: Guns vs No Guns

Postby Lady Maven » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:24 pm

I am a proud card carrying member of the NRA. I believe in the 2nd ammendment whole heartedly.

Do people die from handguns? HELL YES. If they couldn't kill they'd be pointless. Do innocent people get shot with them. Yes. By accident and because some dumb fuck criminal got a hold of one and shot someone. Accidents with guns can be prevented, and frankly, I'd put MY gun skills against some thug holding his gun sideways any day.

I am glad you are trained in self defense Gerien. I REALLY am. *I* am not. Nor do I have the physical capacity to be. However I can SHOOT. I am never afraid to be alone in my home. If they get past my dogs I WILL kill them. I am NOT a pacifist. I will never waste a single day wondering if I did the right thing by killing someone in defense of my life and home.
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